63. Chewing The Fat with Dr. Anthony Chaffee

I have the pleasure to talk with Dr. Anthony Chaffee about carnivore diet. We discuss how plants want to kill you. We also talk about specific cancer patients and how they have used carnivore and the results they have seen.

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63. Chewing the fat with Dr. Anthony Chaffee
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Nurse Kelly: [00:00:00] Welcome to After Hours with Dr. Sigoloff, where he can share ideas and thoughts with you. He gets to the heart of the issue so that you can find the truth. The views and opinions expressed are his and do not represent the US Army, d o d, nor the US government. Dr. Sigoloff was either off duty or on approved leave, and Dr.

Nurse Kelly: Sigoloff was not in uniform at the time of recording now to Dr. Sigoloff.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: All right. Well, thank you for joining me again. I want to first thank all my Paton supporters. We've got Shell at the $50 level. Sam and Angela Sheey at the 2020 level per custom made level at the plan demo, our pandemic reprimand $17 and 76 cents.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: We have Perry and Ty. We've got Kevin aos and Katie at the $10 level. We've got Joe, pj, Rebecca Emmy had $5. And at the $1 level, I wanna thank Amanda Betz, Nadi, and Jay, thank you so much for all your support. Don't forget, I'll be selling more of these patches [00:01:00] and those will be available too.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: But today we have a very special guest. And what's great about today's guest is he is a physician. He's actually in residency right now for neurosurgery, which is like among the, the surgeons in, in the medical field. Those are guys that are like, they're like the, the fighter pilots. They are the, the, the cream of the crop type of, of doctors.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: But he's also an advocate. He, he thinks it's a good way to live, is the best way to. To put fuel in your body is to use what we call carnivore or also what man ate 10,000 years ago, and we've forgotten that sense. He's seen amazing healing with it just as I have. And the reason I wanted to have him on today is you've heard me talk about it.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: You know, I can go on and on and on about it, but to hear a different perspective, someone else talk about it, I think he gives more credibility to this way of eating. So how you doing today, Dr. Chaffee?

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: I'm doing great. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me on.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And just call me Sam through this whole thing.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: But give us a little introduction of kind of your story a little bit and how you stumbled across [00:02:00] the whole carnivore diet and, and what led you to believe that is probably the most appropriate way for humans to eat.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: Sure. And, and please call me Anthony. Of course. So while I'm, I'm an American doctor, I'm doing my residency in neurosurgery in Australia, as you mentioned.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: I have always been interested in diet, nutrition, how that affects the health and performance, especially as an athlete. I was an All-American rugby player and then played at the top levels in the US and Canada as well as at the professional level in England as well. And have always loved sports, always loved competition, and wanted to fuel my body the best way that I could.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: And so obviously nutrition is the best way to do that. So I've been studying nutrition since I was a teenager at, at a university level. . When I was in my undergraduate degree at the University of Washington in Seattle, I was taking cancer biology and we were learning basic fundamentals of biology in botany, which is that plants use defense chemicals in order to defend themselves.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: They're stationary, they can't run away or fight [00:03:00] back and use the other sort of kinetic defenses that animals and other other species have. And so they have to have other defenses. And one of those defenses that is ubiquitous amongst all plants are defense chemicals and poisons. And we were looking at this from a.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: Cancer point of view who were looking at carcinogens. And we learned that this is 22 years ago, that brussel sprouts, they've already discovered 136 known human carcinogens just in brussel sprouts. And over a hundred Justin mushrooms and spinach, kale, lettuce, celery, cabbage, cucumber, broccoli. All of these different plants that you would find every day in the produce aisle would have 60, 80 or over a hundred known human carcinogens each.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: And they were quite abundant. We have research out of uc, Berkeley in the 1980s from professor Bruce Ames looking at the defense chemicals in comparison to the pesticides we use industrially, right? So, so these, these defense chemicals are actually the natural pesticides, the natural insecticide that the plants use to stop pests and insects from needing them.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: [00:04:00] And then we add to that because there are some animals and insects that are immune to those defense chemicals, but they're not immune to other defense chemicals. And so we add something to the mix to make it. cover different, different species. And he found that just the defense chemicals and carcinogens that he found in these, these plants at that time, which weren't as many as we've discovered since then, were 10,000 times more prevalent by weight than the, than the pesticides we sprayed on them industrially.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: And that the naturally occurring ones were a thousand times more likely to cause cancer than the defense, than the, the pesticides we sprayed on them in, in animal models. And specifically they were you, they were looking at alar in this instance, which was a pesticide that was spray on apples. And so this is why we still have pesticides.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: So you just said that the, the naturally made this, you know, organic, if you will, made by the. Toxins that it uses to, to protect itself are more carcinogenic than the stuff we spray on it. [00:05:00]

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: Yeah. And, and that's why we still have them, because they were actually, they were actually trying to get all these pesticides banned back in the eighties, actually did ban a number of, of the different pesticides that we used to use because they said, oh, these are poisons, these are toxic, these are horrible.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: And it's true. But Professor Ames showed that actually the natural defense chemicals in the plant itself are actually worse, which would make sense. There's standard reason because these, these things are alive, they like to stay alive and all living things have a defense. And so they have to have these, these naturally occurring pesticides and insecticides in them that are basically poisonous to everything on earth.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: Except there are a few animals and insects that have evolved to break down these specific defense chemicals in, you know, down sa, break them down safely so that they can eat them. And you know, they have that defense, so, so, , you know, as, as you learn in, in basic biology, plants and animals are an evolutionary arms race.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: Plants becoming more and more poisonous, so less and less animals can eat them, so they can survive and thrive. And then [00:06:00] animals becoming more and more adapted to specific poisons in specific plants so they can eat that plant and survive and thrive. And that is their dedicated food source. You know, like a wallaby in Australia, you know, people marvel.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: Its like, wow, these things that they eat are just so deadly poisonous to everything else. That's amazing. No, that's actually very normal. I mean, think of eucalyptus and koalas or bamboo and pandas and, and you know, other animals, some animals that eat pan bamboo as well. But all of these plants that they eat are generally going to be toxic or even dead.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: to basically every other animal on earth. So if you think about it, all plants are poisonous. It's just that certain animals have evolved the ability to break down specific poisons in specific plants, but if they haven't evolved to, to eat that plant, that plant is bad for them. And that, and that goes for us as well because of course we live within nature, you know?

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: And, and we can't, we can't deny our, our, our place in nature. We did not come here from space we did not flash out of, out of nowhere. We are part of [00:07:00] nature. We are animals and nature applies to us. And if we deny that, we're, you're just doing that at our own risk because we, you know, reality will we'll win every time.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: So Anthony, this is exactly what just caught my attention. I was listening to you on, I think you came up on my Instagram feed and you said a phrase that I've been saying for, you've probably been saying it longer, but, and I'd never heard it before from any other doctor, but I. For two years now. And it, it caused a lot of problems for me.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: But I said, plants wanna kill you. They don't want you to eat them. They can't defend themselves. They don't want you eating their babies and their babies are their seeds. I don't think you said that part, but their babies are like their seeds. And, and when I heard another doctor say that, I was like, just blown away that, wow, someone else came.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: The same exact conclusion. And so that leads me to the next question. Well, well, Dr. Anthony, what else can I eat? What did humans eat 10,000 years ago? What's on every continent in every season that's available for food except for Antarctica, but that's, nobody lives there. [00:08:00]

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: Well, penguins, you know, eat some penguins, but.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: Yeah, but you, you're right. I mean, that, that's exactly it. Is that, you know, the, the universal underlying theme there is animals. You know, we, we were hunters. We were not hunter gatherers. We were hunters. We were very recently hunter gatherers after the megaphone had died out through some sort of cataclysm or overhunting, probably a mixture of both.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: And at that point we had to sort of find other means of sustenance. But, you know, even, even then, you know, many civilizations still were just exclusively eating meat. You know, when, when the Europeans came to America, They were essentially all of this, the native peoples were still just carnivores. They were, they were doing buffalo drops.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: They were just, you know, having scaring a herd of a part of a herd of buffalo over a cliff. They'd all fall down and die. And they would make pemmican out of that, dry the meat, crush it up, and mix it with rendered fat. And that would blast the whole year. And that's all they were eating. [00:09:00] And there was a hundred million people on the continent of North America surviving like this.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: And there were certain areas that developed agriculture actually seven independent places across the world. So it seems to be that this provided some sort of advantage in certain areas where maybe the, you know, we didn't have big buffalo herds and things like that, but there were plenty of, of peoples, I mean, think of, think of you know, slightly further back than that, Genghis Khan and the Mongol Hde, they were pure carnivores.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: They just ate horse meat, drank horse blood, and fermented mare's milk and their products. and they're completely lactose intolerant, by the way. They didn't, they didn't actually just drink it on its own. They, and they, they had to ferment it and get rid of all the lactose. It was all always fermented like cheeses and yogurt and, and like a little weird beer.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: I don't know how that's gonna taste, but you know, it's like mare's milk booze. And and that's what, and that's what they ate. And, you know, that's actually conferred huge advantage to advantages them not, not only in health, because that's, were huge. I mean, every account talks about this, how they were just that monstrous [00:10:00] in size.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: These guys were pushing seven feet and you was just massive, massive, massive people. And and they would talk about how they would like, wouldn't eat for five days in a row, and then they would eat. Five pounds of horse meat, 10 pounds of horse meat in a go. And then they'd go for another, another five or six days.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: And that was normal for them. And because of that, a, they were much better nourish. They were much stronger, they had much better energy. And they didn't have to stop three times a day to get out the field rations, boil up some oats and, and feed all the troops, and then keep marching. They could just keep going.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: And they didn't have all these cook fires and campfires and everything like that, so they were silent. You couldn't, you couldn't see campfires in an army, you know? Oh, there's an army else coming closer. Oh, we know where they are. You didn't know where they were. They just show up out of nowhere. And they knew exactly where you were because they could see all your campfires.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: They could see you stopping three times a day and they could see you, you campfires at night. And so they had a massive advantage and they took over. Most of Asia and most of Europe, and they had the largest contiguous [00:11:00] empire that's ever existed. And they held it for hundreds of years until there's another cataclysm that seemed to, you know, get up a bunch of particulates in, into the atmosphere, block out the rays of the sun.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: A lot of the plant life and grasses died off, and horses just aren't as capable of extracting nutrients out of grass as cows are. So, so the peoples that were nomadic cow herders, they sort of took over and that's what Russia is now. They took over most of that previous empire and You know, but that, that just goes to show you that this is, this is a very, very viable model, even for a large empire.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: And actually it, it confers an advantage to that. We've sort of forgotten that, but you, there are a number of examples of that throughout history.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Yeah. What I think is interesting is there's this idea in the medical field that the Mediterranean diet that has been, you know, allegedly proven to be so heart healthy, they've turned it into this, this plant, you know, monstrosity where it's, oh, we're just eating plants.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: But if you look at the people in the Mediterranean, they ate goat, goats, milk, sheep. They had some fruit [00:12:00] like olives and, you know, cucumbers and tomatoes. But it was, and cheese and yogurt. But it was a animal based diet with fruit. And can you get into the, the difference between because, sorry, go ahead.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: Oh, I was just gonna say, you know, I mean, read the ID and the Odyssey.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: I mean, it's all about, you know, the animals that they're hurting and, you know, sacrificing goats and sheep and things like that. You know, o Odysseus gets back home, kicks out all this suitors who are just, every day they're just, you know, decimating his herds and, and and they're like, and he's telling his wife's like, don't worry, we kicked all these guys out.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: We'll get all that money back. We'll just, you know, go, go start raiding their towns and villages and we'll just take it all back. And things like that. It was all about meat. It was all about animal produce. Yeah.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And I don't know if you have a any sort of a religious background, but in the Bible too, it's, it's about hurting.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: You know, he was a wealthy, like Abraham was a wealthy man because he had huge herds and Yeah, it's just, it's when you start looking back, you're like, oh, everything points to eating.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: Well, yeah. You know, to, to [00:13:00] your point there, I mean, look at the story of Kane Abel, basically almost as far back as you can go. I mean, hey, we're not in the Garden of Eden anymore. That's when people think it's like, oh, we can eat all these plants. No, we're, we're not in the Garden of Eden. That's the whole point now.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: And so we, we are you know, subject to different rules. And Kain, a Abel was a hurter, and he sacrificed, you know, the fatted lamb to, to God. God was pleased. And then Kane was, was a farmer, put us some crops on there, some, you know, tofu and and, and bean Kern. And God was like, absolutely not. That's disgusting.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: And . And then God was displeased. And so, you know, and then, then Kane got, you know very, you know, jealous and butt hurt about that. And so he ended up killing his brother Abel, which I think is the first you know, first example of an angry vegan, you know, just like, ah, I'm not, I'm not happy with you meat eaters and , you know, so but yeah, I mean, there, there are are plenty of examples of all of this.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: I watched this, this cartoon on YouTube with my kids. It's called Storybook and some of the older cart versions of it, they have, they have that Canan Abel story, and it's, it's so like right in your face. They, and they did a very, very good job of it. You know, [00:14:00] Abel is his hurter. He's eating sheep and, and eggs and all this, that and the other.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And, and we call it strong food for my kids. And we have weak food. Weak food is. You know, any vegetable and all processed foods, fruits kind in the middle, doesn't really matter so much. And, and what's just striking? I ask the kids what is, what's Kane eating weak food. You know, he's eating grains, he's eating like kale, he's eating spinach and he's eating all, and he, his brother brings him eggs.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And you know, this is, they've taken some literary license with this, right? His brother brings him some eggs and he smashes 'em on the ground. And it's just like, wow. He didn't eat any strong food. I don't know if you remember in April of 2020, there was an article that came out that said that those that eat meat have less behavioral health issues than those that eat no meat.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Well, what's a murderous rage? That's, that's a behavioral health issue.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, I was just thinking of what you were saying that that's interesting that you have that, that that same conclusion that plants are trying to kill you. I, I originally heard that [00:15:00] from my. Cancer biology professor, because that's what he said, 22, that's what converted me 22 years ago to exclusively eating meat, was that he said we basically telling us all about all these carcinogens and toxins that are in, in vegetables.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: And literally we were blown away. And I, I remember I was thrashed looking around wildly to see who was in on the joke, because it must be a joke. And everyone else was doing it too. Everyone was just looking around, just, just violently like, what's going on? Just looking for like a ta someone in the corner just laughing like, ah, he just always does this.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: No one did that. Yeah, exactly. And, and, and, you know, yeah, we're, yeah, on candy camera or something like that and like, you know, it it didn't happen and so it just sort of dawned on me like, okay, this guy's serious. And I remember thinking to myself, I'm like, but, but vegetables are still good for you though, right?

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: And he just sort of looked at us and he just read our minds and he just said, I don't eat salad. I don't eat vegetables. I don't let my kids eat vegetables. plants are trying to kill you. [00:16:00] So I was like, right, forget plants. And I just stopped that day and I just, you know, went to the store and was looking around and my only mission was to n not eat plants.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: And I was looking, I'm like, what else is there? Is everything's plants or has plants in it as ingredients. And so I just came across, you know, eggs and meat and milk and I was like, oh, hey, these don't come from plants. So that's, that's all I'll eat. I, I was still drinking milk at that time. I don't really anymore, just cuz it has enough lactose that it, you know, can raise your insulin and derge your metabolism.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: But at the time I was, I wasn't actually drinking all that much that often. It was mostly just meat and water. but yeah. And, but that was my only, my only I thought was I, I don't want to eat plants. Plants are trying to kill me, and I just got rid of them. When I was in England, I was playing rugby over there.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: It was just harder to get you know, meat. And it was much more. , a lot of it was breaded and just for convenience I would get some of like the breaded meat and just cuz it was easier. And I don't know what it was, but like it was very hard to cook a steak over there. I don't know if I like . This pisses off everybody in England, every time I say our meats such good quality, like okay, maybe.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: But the ones I was getting was like injected [00:17:00] with water or something because like I could not get these things to brown at all. It didn't matter what heat I used or how long I cooked it, it was like they would not brown. And so I'm like cooking it, it's just like, just being gray. I'm like, what the, what is going on here?

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: I flip it over, it's just gray and sweaty and it would be completely cooked through, it would be completely well done. It would not be brown on either side. I was like, I, what is going on with these steaks? Couldn't get these things to brown. And so, you know, I just, you know, for convenience sort of went for these pre-cooked things that were breaded.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: And I was thinking, I was like, well, is that, is that gonna be a problem? I was like, well, Dose makes the poison. So, you know, maybe it's not all that bad and you know, you're always able to convince yourself of some stupid idea that you want to do. And, and so I did that and I actually didn't feel as good. I remember a couple months into it feeling like, why, why don't I feel as Amma?

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: You know? It's absolutely just superhuman amazing as I normally do. Am I not just not working out as hard? Am I 25 now? So am I over the hump and am I just dying now? Like, I don't know. I didn't, I didn't know what was going on, but it was you know, looking back it was, that was exactly when I started introducing [00:18:00] plants back in.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: And the worst thing that that did was it, it changed from me really thinking, I'm not eating plants at all, ever to. , I guess they're not, I guess some of these things. And, and all of a sudden I just started eating these things. I remember one day I was just like, I was with the, the team and I was, it was like a Sunday or something like that, and we're all just hanging out and I was like, oh, we should make like french toast.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: I haven't had french toast in years. I was thinking, I was like, Hmm, I wonder why I haven't done that. Just completely forgetting that I've not eaten plants in five years, you know, . And it was just, it was so weird. It was just like, it was so weird. I just, you know, it just, it, it, it just sort of slipped away and I just sort of lost that thought.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: And then sort of like five, six years ago, I came across, you know, again, information that no humans actually are carnivores as a species. That's biologically what we are. We are animals. And the type of animal we are is a carnivore. All animals have a species specific diet, very specific things in the wild.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: This is why there are signs at the zoo saying, do not feed the animals. This will make them very sick signs at the park saying the same thing. And that is why, because if you eat something [00:19:00] that you're not designed to eat, you will get sick because of these defense chemicals. And because you can't process the fiber in the carbohydrates unless you're a certain species and.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: We are not that species. And so I looked at that and I went, right. I knew it. I knew plants were trying to kill me, get rid of these stupid things, and I just went back to just eating meat. But now I was doing it in a much more mindful way. I knew exactly what I was doing and why. And then I really started digging into the research and the data and asking, okay, what do we know and, and what can we prove?

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: You know? And and I just started digging in. I just, I was, you know, I, I'd taken, well, I basically left my residency at the time to go help with a family emergency. You know, my, my parents were having health issues and I just needed to be home for a while. And so I was helping out with that. . And and so I had, I had a bit more time, and so I, I was literally spending just eight, nine hours a day.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: It was back like, you know, doing my, you know, boards and MCATs again, you know, just, just like in front of a computer, just, just reading and reading and reading. But now it was just trying to resource, asking questions [00:20:00] like, okay, you know, like, well, sugar, you know, and, and you know, has that been causing, you know, I knew sugar, I knew the research about sugar and fructose and that causing harm.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: I knew the research that, you know cholesterol and saturated fat actually weren't bad ever. And , you know, so I had all these things and the plants are trying to kill you, sort of things.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: That's an mind blowing thing. That cholesterol is good, saturated fat is good. Our body's

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: made of it. That's it. Well, you know, it.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: Yeah. Well, that's it. You know, I was in eighth grade and was taking, you know, biology in eighth grade, and I remember learning, it's like the, the cell membranes are cholesterol. And I was just like, and I remember thinking myself, I was like, how is cholesterol bad for us? We are cholesterol. I was like, well, you know, I'm just a kid.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: I don't really know every, everything, so, you know, I guess I'll learn this eventually. And I just sort of tuck that thought away. But, you know, I was right. I mean, that, that's why, you know, they, they talk about, you know, like wisdom from the mouth of babes because, you know, kids haven't been indoctrinated yet, and they can actually just see what's in front of them.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: And it's pretty damn clear. Like, we are made out of [00:21:00] cholesterol. Our hormones are all made out of cholesterol. Our brain is made out of cholesterol. There are a lot of things that run on cholesterol. Why would it just all of a sudden be bad for us? Or, you know, the carrier protein re you know, more specifically that, that transports fat and cholesterol around.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: Why, why is that bad for us? That that's the, that's a natural process in our body and just, just for some reason it just. Yeah, exactly. And, and so this, this is where we vilify LDL cholesterol. First of all, there are many different kinds of LDL cholesterol. They're not all the same. And and, but again, this is, this is a natural, normal molecule that we make in health to transport i lipids and, and cholesterol.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: Why would that be bad for us? That doesn't make any damn sense.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Just shocked me when I was in biology biology 1301 and they said, you know, if you go on an extremely low caloric intake, your LDL and your just skyrockets immediately. I was like, that is a strange thing. Why would my LDL skyrocket if it's, why would my body [00:22:00] make something to kill me if it's as bad as they say it is when I'm fasting?

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And then, you know, 20 years later I find out, oh no, it's part of the immune system. It helps scrounge up all that stuff. It's a way to move energy around my body to where cancer and bacteria and viruses can't use it. . It's like, oh, now that makes so much more sense why that happens when I fast

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: Yeah. And you know, and, and the fact that there, there are many, many, many different kinds of particulate sizes and different kinds of ldl and, and it matters what kind those are. And it's not that those inherently are, are bad for you. They, they're causing harm. They're in, they're, they're sort of the smoke as opposed to the fire.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: You know, it, they come about from damage or damaging yourself from placation. And so when you have carbohydrates, you have excess glucose or even fructose, this can glycated which is a non enzymatic fusion of these, these sugar molecules to other molecules. So this is, this is a [00:23:00] pathological.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: Function. Like this is not something that we, we do ourselves or that we want to do. So this happens just sticks to different molecules and messes them up and damages them. And that's what happens to these other LDL molecules and it, and it puts 'em into, you know, mix 'em into a small dense lipoproteins.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: And and those are, have a stronger association with heart disease. But there's, there's, there's still no evidence that they cause heart disease. . What I think is, this is what a lot of people say, it's not just me is that this is in a larger inflammatory process, and this is a product of the inflammatory process is this damage to this LDL cholesterol that's also damaging a lot of other things that's also causing a lot of inflammation and damage to the rest of your body.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: That is then precipitates atherosclerosis. So the reason that there's an association is because both things are being caused by the same process, and that is much more likely to be the case. And certainly it's not a direct one-to-one LDL cholesterol to heart disease. We know that. I mean, that, [00:24:00] that's, that's, that's a no-brainer.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: I mean, even, even people that still you know, espouse the cholesterol theory of heart disease, still have to admit that because there are massive studies. There's a two different studies in the US where over 140,000 participants in the US who had a heart attack and. 50% had high cholesterol, 50% had low cholesterol, literally straight down the, down the line.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: 50 50. And so it wasn't even like, well, it was like a 2% increase. No, no, it wasn't, it wasn't anything. It was, it was completely not associated. And you know, even if you have an association, even if it's a strong association, you can't prove causation. But if you have no association and you have pretty strong reasons to say there's no association, like 140,000 people where there is absolutely no association, well, that actually proves that there's no causation because you have to have an association if you're gonna cause something.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: Right. And what's more interesting is that those patients were followed up two years later, [00:25:00] and the ones that either maintained a low cholesterol or reduced their cholesterol from high to low were two times as likely to have died. in, in the intervening two years of follow up, and the people that, that continue to have higher cholesterol, they were half as likely to die.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: So, you know, we know that it's not just one to one. Cholesterol goes up, heart disease comes out. We know that. Okay? But at the same time, people are still saying, oh my God, you, your cholesterol, your cholesterol. Well, if we, we, if we know it's not causative, if we know there's not a direct relationship between just your number of cholesterol and heart disease, then what are you saying is the mechanism here?

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: I mean, that, no, no one really answers that. They just say, right, here's a statin.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: That was gonna be my next question for you is, well, here, here a patient, here's the statin and, and let's, let's kind of noodle through this a little bit, but if we're, if our brain is the fattiest organ in our body and we're altering how our body metabolizes fat cholesterol, [00:26:00] wouldn't it make perfect sense that we would have problems with cognition?

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: Wouldn't it make perfect sense that we have if LDLs part of the immune system, that we have problems with infection, which is one of the side effects. It all just falls into place. These aren't weird side effects. These are make perfect sense.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: Well, but that's it. And, and you know, as you know, someone said to me before, there are no side effects.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: There are just effects. Some of 'em you want, some of 'em you don't. But that this, this is what this drug does. And what that drug does is it reduces a molecule in your body that is actually very important and has a lot of functionality and and, and effects in your body that, that you don't actually wanna get rid of.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: And so people can have a lot of. Side effects. And they say they, they mitigate that because they say, well, you know, you're getting these problems, but oh, at least you won't get a heart attack, or you'll be less likely to get a heart attack. And that's actually not true. You know, the studies are actually showing that there was a study with over 60,000 people over the age of 65, which are the, you know, highest risk group of getting heart attacks.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: And they found that they, the ones with [00:27:00] higher LDL cholesterol were either, you know, had, had no, you know increased risk or sometimes actually a decreased risk if they had higher LDL cholesterol and were not on statins. And then the ones with statins had a slightly increased risk, and the ones that had low LDL cholesterol and on statins, they were at the, at the highest risk.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: So that's, that's doing the exact opposite of what this is proposing to do. And so the conclusion of this, that the authors were saying, Hey, look, we really need to rethink the role of statins and the role of cholesterol in heart disease because at, at the, at the best that we can say with this dataset is that, Statins don't provide any benefit.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: And, and the worst we can say is that they're actually causing harm. And that would make sense if you understand, if you understand that cholesterol is not a direct cause of heart disease and so, and it is actually a molecule that's really good for you. And so you don't actually want to reduce it. If you reduce it, that's gonna cause harm and it's not gonna save you from heart's disease.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: When you start thinking of, [00:28:00] of these studies like you're showing where it's, it's not helpful and it may be quite harmful, it's like, well then what's, why is the push for this? Why do all insurance companies push this? And, and I certainly don't want you saying anything cuz again, for the listener, he's in a different country.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: We, we don't want to have him say things that would cause problems for him, let's put it that way. And we'll leave it at that because there are other things that he can't talk about that may cause problems. And we're not broaching those subjects at all today. But. Who, who stand, who stands to benefit, right.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: If insurance, let's say in America, if insurance, if I don't get good scores from my insurance company, if I accept insurance, because you know, all my patients aren't on statins, well, I can't open their mouth and jam a pill down their throat. So what's, what's the point? Like what, why are they pushing these so hard?

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: I don't have an answer. I don't know if you do.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: Oh, the statins. Well, I mean, you know, the statins have been the most successful drug that's ever been brought to market. It's brought the most profit and the [00:29:00] most, you know, we just, gross income of any group of medications ever in history. And if. They keep, you know, rolling this, you know down this path.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: It's, it's going to just continue to, to give more and more and more and more back. Because if we're, if we're still, you know, telling ourselves that cholesterol is the end all, be all, you know, anyone getting into their thirties, oh, oh my goodness, you know, you've got, you've got some high cholesterol, better get on this statin before the the, the atherosclerosis builds up or even gets a chance to, you know, they're gonna have, you know, billions of people for the rest of eternity on this drug that they can just keep, you know, you know, minting you know, fortunes off of.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: But, you know, so that, that's their incentive. But, you know, and if, and if it were actually helping people, I, I wouldn't mind that. But I think the evidence is, is quite clear that that, that we got that one wrong. And, you know, I mean the, the Journal of the American College of Cardiology. themselves actually [00:30:00] published in 2020, a large meta-analysis, looking at all the available data and concluded that, you know what?

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: Saturated fat is not a problem. Saturated fat is not a, a, a risk for heart disease. There is no upper limit on the, on the safe amount of saturated fat that you can eat. And in fact, they found an inverse relationship between saturated fat intake and stroke risk. Okay? So they found no association. No association.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: Remember, if there's no association, there is no causation. So they found no association throughout all of the literature between saturated fat intake and heart disease. And they found an inverse relationship between saturated fat in intake and stroke. So the less saturated fat you eat, the more likely you are to have a stroke.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: The more saturated fat intake you have, the less likely you are to have a stroke. And their studies looking at Alzheimer's, dementia, Parkinson's, as you would expect, your brain is made out of. Is is made out of fat, saturated fat and cholesterol, [00:31:00] and, and that having higher saturated fat intake, higher LDL cholesterol, the so-called bad cholesterol, is actually protective against all of these neurodegenerative processes.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: It's even in, in it's even protective against it seems to be a protective link between saturated fat and LDL cholesterol and autism. In fact, pregnant women who have higher intake of saturated fat and higher LDL cholesterol during pregnancy have lower rates of children with autism, which is getting out of control now.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: I mean, the, the rates of autism are, are skyrocketing. As with all these other chronic diseases that we are seeing and facing over the past 40 years. They've all. dramatically. You know, I mean, like we, we revolutionized the way we ate. We said that cholesterol was bad, saturated fat is causes higher cholesterol.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: This all exists in meat. Stop eating meat. Stop eating eggs, eat more fruits and vegetables, and people listened. In America alone, we reduced our fat intake by 30%, re and cholesterol as well. Reduced red meat by 33%. You know, sort of switched over to chicken, lean chicken sort of things. [00:32:00] And then increased fruits and vegetables by 30, 40% respectively, and also grains and sugar as well.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: And what happened? The obesity rate tripled heart disease, tripled stroke rate, tripled cancer rates tripled. Type two diabetes, autoimmune disorders, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, even, you know, neurodegenerative, developmental delays such as, All increased exponentially. They almost didn't exist before then.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: Now they're the only things we treat and they all increased at the exact same time and they're still increasing. And we are still pushing more and more and more away from fat, away from meat and into plants, into seed oils, going more vegan, going more fake meat. And so we're seeing exactly what you expect if that theory is true, that we are going further away from our naturally evolved species specific diet, our designed diet, our designed biological food source.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: And just like animals in the zoo, just like you know, the ducks at a apart, if you feed us something that we don't normally eat, we will get sick. And that is exactly [00:33:00] what's happening. And so that sort of shows that relationship that we're eating the wrong. Again, you know, from a religious

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: background, I, I look at this from a different light cuz it seems like, oh, there's some conspiracy to do this.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: No, there's not there, there's a thing called the unseen realm. And so, you know, our fight is not against flesh and blood against rulers and principalities of darkness and in this unseen realm. And so what that means in the Bible is that there are these beings you can call. Demonic means if you want, but what they do is they wanna destroy God, Satan, he wants to des, he can't strike it.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: God, there's nothing he can do to God, but he can destroy humanity and that gets to God. And so how does that work? Well, there's a whispering of the ear, oh, eat this. This is better for you. When in reality, it's worse for your body, it's worse for the planet, and it it leads you to a point where you're so vitamin deficient that you don't know you're having neuropsych issues like b12, B12 deficiency where there's no plant that has B12 in it.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: It can look like schizophrenia.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: Yeah. And there's there's even a book that came [00:34:00] out from Harvard psychiatrist, Chris Dr. Chris Palmer, who wrote a book called Brain Energy. And he's done, he's been doing research for years now, looking at how diet, specifically ketogenic diet, Schizophrenia and other psychiatric issues.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: And he, and he's come up with this underlying unifying theory of psychiatric disorders, that it is a metabolic mitochondrial disease, which we were finding that a lot of diseases like diabetes, like cancer, like a lot of different diseases that are so-called chronic diseases, they actually come from a dysfunction of the mitochondria because we're eating the wrong thing and we're damaging our mitochondria.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: They aren't working as, as well and they can't generate attp properly and they can't move around the cell. It's quite interesting cause, cause as he explains in the book, mitochondria actually move around on these little cytoskeletons sort of a trains and the, you have hundreds of these things, thousands of these things in your cells, over a thousand if you're healthy.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: And they'll go to a certain area and they'll make ATP right there released out of [00:35:00] that area and. Spark something happen in that area. Neurotransmitters be released from that area right there. And, and then they'll go to another area. And so this is all carefully coordinated. When that breaks down, that can't happen as quickly, that can't happen as efficiently.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: They're not getting the ATP out in the, in the abundance and timing that they need to. And that will just cause everything to go wrong. I mean, you have anywhere from few hundred, you know, few hundred billion cells to several trillion cells in neurons in your brain. And, and they have, you know, 20 to 30,000 different interconnections with other cells.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: And so, you know, even, even just a little bit going wrong with, with that extremely intricate dynamic in hundreds of billions of cells, you have a major problem. You know, this is, this is the most finely tuned precision instrument that we know of in the universe. And. It can go very, very wrong. And you know, that's, that's why I tell people that, you know, like the last [00:36:00] 5% of going to a, you know, a carnivore diet, a biologically appropriate diet converts about 95% of the benefit.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: Because even just a little bit of sand in the gears in a precision watch, you, it's done. You know, you don't need to dump the whole, you know, sandlot in there. It's just like a little bit will do it. And so because you, you've tinkered with this precision instrument, it's going to go wrong. And he found that people that went on a, a ketogenic diet, they were actually curing.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: schizophrenia, bipolar O c D, major depression, anxiety in, in far greater numbers than any of the standard of care. You know, you know, near complete recovery in most people. There was a, a study done by Georgia EID with 32 psychiatric patients that were in, patients that were refractory to standard of care medications.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: They, they failed and they were just, they couldn't function in society. So they were all in institutionalized. They were all put on a ketogenic diet. Every single one improved, you know, none [00:37:00] of them improved on the standard of care. Every single one improved on, on a ketogenic diet. That's 32 patients.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: Chris Palmer has, has done this with hundreds and hundreds, you know, and the guys at, at Harvard and Harvard does, does a lot of good research, you know, and they do a lot of bad research too. They're very, very plant-based, which is interesting because he's in, he's in Harvard and this is where a lot of this, you know, just plants are good nonsense are coming out.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: And because they're coming from Harvard, and so it was Harvard, of course, you know, it's so great and it's like, and, but thankfully people like Dr. Palmer and others are actually coming out with real research showing actual improvement in people's lives. And it goes against that. So they, they, I'm sure they're fighting an uphill battle.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: In their own institutions. What first turned me

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: onto carnivore was I, I stumbled across Mikayla Peterson. Well, there was mc, Jordan Peterson talking about Mikayla and her. She had idiopathic hyper se is what he said and, which is interesting cuz I would just diagnosed with that. [00:38:00] Huh, interesting. And which is a super rare, it's like narcolepsy, but even more rare.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And the difference is you go into REM versus not going to rem and I was in Alaska at the time and, you know, being a doctor, being on call, having narcolepsy your entire life. But now you're in Alaska, so you're, you're standing in quicksand. It's like always being a jet lag. You have two minutes and 30 seconds of daylight change every single day.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: So it's either all day, all night, or you're always somewhere in between. And none of the medications were working. And so I started doing carnivore. I just switched one month and I could stay awake. I could read to my kids at night and not be falling asleep with a book in my hand. and it was just, it was just shocking.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: And now if I have carbs, I get tired. It's, it's striking how quickly I can get tired from, from just a little bit of carbs. Like even fruit, you know, it's, I, I really have to stay away from carbs so that I don't, and it's not like deuce biglow where you just fall asleep in your soup. It's not, it's not like that.

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: It's [00:39:00] but just that feels like you've been up for 48 hours. It just kinda o.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: Yeah. Well, I mean, if you think about it biochemically, you know, when you're in, you know, you know I'm, I'm sure you took biochemistry as, you know, as required for pre-med in America. And yet a lot of doctors in America seem to miss this simple fact that when you are in a so-called fasting state, your body works way better and you, you produce carbohydrates, you produce glucose and glycogen and ketones, and that's much more efficient to actually store energy in fat and then use it later as you need to and as opposed to just keep feeding the beast, you know, a whole bunch of carbohydrates and just this quick burning fuel that you have to keep, keep going with.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: That doesn't really make sense. And, and so I don't think that that is a fasting state. This also doesn't make sense as a fasting state because I can eat three pounds of ribeye and still be in a fasting metabolism that that's clearly not a fasting metabolism that is just a. [00:40:00] Metabolic state that we are primarily in when we're eating our primary food source, which is meat, and that the so-called Fed State is a pathological state defense mechanism that our body's defending ourselves against hyperglycemia, which is dangerous because of this glycation that I mentioned earlier.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: The higher your blood sugar. The higher the rate of, of glycation and this damages you. This, this can kill you. This is what kills diabetics and your body recognizes this and, and puts up your insulin as a defense and tries to get this out as quickly as possible. But it's not, it's not, well, we're just gonna titrate this down slowly.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: It says, no, no, no, we need to get this out now. And so it really slammed up your insulin quite high and has a, a long halflife and so it stays up and your blood sugar is now too low and you feel wretched, you know, and then you have to keep eating carbs to keep feeding that engine because insulin blocks lipolysis, it blocks proteolysis.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: So now all of your fat stores [00:41:00] are shut down. You cannot mobilize energy anymore. You cannot make glucose glycogen ketones. You can only run on the, on the blood sugar that is now coming down precipitously. And so you. keep eating carbs and keep eating carbs and keep eating carbs. And I don't, so I don't think that that's our primary metabolic state.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: In fact, that is not the primary metabolic state of humans in the wild who just eat meat like the Inuit and or like other animals in the wild. 66% of animals animal species are carnivores. They're all in this ketogenic starvation state as they call it. And, but also herbivores, herbivores that eat fibrous plants.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: They are able to break down fiber. We're not able to break down fiber. That's another reason that, you know, we're not supposed to be eating this stuff is because we can't do anything with it useful. So animals that are herbivores that eat fibrous plants, they can all break down fiber, but they break it down into short chain fatty acids because it's the bacteria [00:42:00] that eat the fiber.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: No ENT animal can break down fiber. So the bacteria break it down. And as a waste product, they produce short chain fatty acids and then the bacterias die off, and that's also broken down and absorbed as protein. So what the animal is actually eating or is, is different from what it's absorbing. So it eats a bunch of fiber and it absorbs fat and protein.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: So even a cow or a, or a or a gorilla is just eating green leaves and occasional fruit. They actually eat more green leaves than fruit. They're actually in this, they're actually getting 70 to 80% of their calories from fat. And so they're all in a ketogenic starvation state. And we've actually tested this in wolves in 1981.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: There was a study. They said, well, you know, you need carbs to burn carbs. That was the thought of the day. . And so, you know, but we don't see wolves, you know, carbo loading before they chase caribou for 10 hours. So like, okay, do they have blood sugar? Do they have glycogen? And so they found out yes, they do.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: And it's rock solid. It does not change [00:43:00] no matter what they're doing, no matter what point that they, they found them, whether they're at rest, when they're in the chase, after the kill, after they've eat. , it didn't matter. It was right here because their body was constantly replenishing it from their fat stores.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: That is a much more efficient way of doing things than having to run, run, run, run, run. Oh, okay, I need, I need to eat a power bar and then I can keep chasing this guy. Oh, okay. All right. Now I can go, that, that doesn't work. You know, that does, just doesn't work in the wild. And so I think the only reason that we call that fed State and it's a fasting state, is because by the time we're able to look at biochemistry at a molecular level, everyone was eating carbohydrates.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: And so I said, oh, when you eat, it looks like this. When you don't eat, it looks like that. It's like,

yeah,

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: yeah, yeah. Well, okay. When you eat anything except carbohydrates, it also looks like this. And you're not fasting. You have just eaten thousands of calories so you're not fasting. Okay. So that's just your normal.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: I gonna take you back

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: to the, something about the cancer, cuz, and, and I caught some of your Instagram live feed yesterday. And you know, I, I think I know the answer to this, but I'm gonna ask you anyways just [00:44:00] cuz I wanna make sure everyone else knows the answer to this. You were talking about cancer and how, as a common pathway, and you alluded to this, but so are you saying that all cancer's a metabolic issue that could probably be refined down to

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: mitochondria?

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: That that seems to be you know what the, what the biology certainly suggests. Excuse me. So you know, that, that, that's not me saying that, you know, like there's some of the top, excuse me, some of the top cancer researchers in the world going back to a hundred years. These are their conclusions. And so if you look at cancer biology, look at the work of you know, Nobel Prize winner Auto Warburg.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: He wrote a paper in 1951 called The Origin of. and he talked about how this, this comes from the mitochondria. This comes from damage to its ability to go through oxidative phosphorylation. And when it does that, it has to go through a substrate level fermentation process. A lot of, you know, big [00:45:00] words for a lot of people that they're never heard these things before.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: What that means is the mitochondria are damaged and they're not able to create ATP properly, and so they have to go through other, to other means of energy production because that cell needs is, needs to make energy. . So the problem with this is there are a lot of downstream effects of this. It can create a lot of free radicals.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: It's less efficient, so you need a lot more glucose, and it caused a lot of free radicals that can hit around bouncing around damaged cells that can cause DNA damage and mutations. It also upregulates and through epigenetics, it starts changing the genetic expression to start opening up the channel to start hosing in more glucose because they're like, Hey, we need more glucose.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: We're not getting enough ATP with this level of glucose, and we can't run on ketones anymore. Because once those, those mitochondria are damaged to a certain extent, they can't run on ketones. So they can only run on glucose and only in the level of this cytoplasm or they [00:46:00] can also, some of them run on glutamine and so they can run on that, those sources, but they can't run efficiently.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: So they have to open up these channels and have to pull in a lot of glucose and glutamine. It could stop there. Except for the fact that the mitochondria do a lot more than that. The mitochondria are actually what Control apoptosis program cell death. So when things are going radically wrong and the cell just says, well, no, we just gotta, we just gotta ex exit right here and let the rest of the boys go on.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: That doesn't work if you're mitochondria or, or damaged and destroyed. So they can't do that anymore. And then further, further than that, it, the mitochondria actually what regulate cell division. So they can't stop the cell from dividing it inappropriate times if they're damaged and they're not able to go about their normal business.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: So what is cancer? It's unregulated cell growth. And that's exactly what happens when you destroy the mitochondria. And [00:47:00] so what we see in mitochondria that, or sorry, in the cancer cells throughout. Every single cancer cell as there are these damaged mitochondria, there's something different about them.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: There's more of them. There's less of them, and they're, they're physically, structurally different. And, you know, in, in cell biology structure, you know, begets function. And so if the structure's damaged, they will not have the same function. And so you will see these damaged mitochondria in every cancer cell.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: And you'll also see that all these cancer cells ne as auto Warburg showed a hundred years ago. And people like Professor Siegfried to Boston College, formerly Yale have showed subsequently that cancer cells. Roughly require 400 times the amount of glucose to operate than normal cells because they're not as efficient at it.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: So they need a lot more of it. And they, they go through, you know, this, this fermentative process, basically like anaerobic activity. You know, instead of getting a 36 atp, you're just getting two. And so you need a lot more of [00:48:00] this stuff. And they're bio, you know they're biologically more active as well, so, you know, they, they need more even because of that.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: And so, you know, so that, that gives you a good idea that this is from the level of the mitochondria. Right. And another few things to consider. You know, the, the, the other idea is, is the somatic theory of cancer, which is, this all comes down with the DNA because that's what happened. Watson and Crick discovered DNA N after, after auto Warberg discovered all this about the mitochondria cancer.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: And everyone just basically is went, forget what everybody ever said. It's all about the dna. Cause I figured this is it, this is the code for life. This is where everything comes from. And forgetting first of all, that mitochondria have dna and second of all, like, you know, other things can have structure and function and Yeah, exactly.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: And so, and, and you know, the mitochondria vaccine implanted, you know, its own DNA into, you know, the nucleus and things like that. But there's, there's still, [00:49:00] you know, many genes in mitochondria as well. And they have, they have, they have epigenetic effects on the nucleus as well. So it's much more complicated than that.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: And, but that, that was what happened. So basically everything got overshadowed because we discovered DNA N like, oh, everything's dna. Well, no it's not, you know, that has a lot to do with a lot of things, but that's not the end all be all. And some things you can look at that, that sort of disrupt the somatic theory of cancer is that, first of all cancer cells don't all have the same genetics.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: They're not all monoclonal. That's actually what I was taught in, in medical school. And, you know, it was like, you have this, you have this, this mutation, you get this mutation after mutation, after mutation. You get these eight different mutations that are hallmark of metastatic cancer, and then it just starts growing out of control.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: And that makes this big tumor and that spreads throughout your body. But that's actually not true. You know, like you, you can take a, you can take a tumor and you can cut it up and look at it in a microscope and you will see every single cell actually visibly looks [00:50:00] different. And they all have different DNA as well.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: And so they all, but they all act as cancer. They all behave as cancer. They're all malignant cells. And so that's a bit off. And some cancers actually don't have any genetic changes. None. So what's that? You know, and they, they come up with all these different weird theories. Like, well, you know, the, you know, the the microenvironment around it.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: Maybe that's encouraging that to act as cancer. Like, well, you can sort of try to fit in different theories, but what it isn't is a genetic change in that nucleus. Right? And so that, that's something right there. Another one that's very interesting is actually from direct test. They've taken, it's called like a, a mitochondria and DNA transfer study.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: So they've taken the damaged nucleus, the damaged DNA, out of cancer cell, and put it into a normal cell with normal, normal cytoplasm and mitochondria. It does not behave as cancer. They could even clone frogs and [00:51:00] rats out of it. Okay? Then you take the mitochondria, the damaged mitochondria, put that into a healthy cell.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: With healthy normal dna, it either dies on the spot or it turns into cancer. You cannot clone anything out of it, it'll just, it'll just turn, turn into a ball of cancer and die. And so, you know, that's, that's, you know, pretty significant. And if you take healthy mitochondria and you put that into a cancer cell, it suppresses the cancer, it stops behaving as cancer.

Dr. Anthony Chaffee: Okay. Regardless of the, the dna. That's

Dr. Sam Sigoloff: better proof for origin of cancer than what we have for proof of origin of viruses. But

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