( -0858 ) What's Behind the Ukraine-Russia Conflict - Ruling Elite Psycho-History - Also Low-IQ Doctor Attempts to Force Mom to Drug Her Healthy Child

( -0858 ) Ruling Elite Psycho-History - Harbingers of Doom From Rasputin to Brennin - Tolkien was right. The holy transgression and spiritual confusion crowd are in line with war mongers of Mordor.

In summary, while there is no clear evidence of direct influence from the Sabbateans to the Khlysty, the broader cultural and intellectual climate of mystical and esoteric exploration in Eastern Europe during this period could have contributed to the emergence of similar themes in different religious movements.

AI conversation on the Khlysty and Sabbateans, Frankists, Tantric Buddhists, Whirling Dervishes, etc.

how come you didn't mention, with Rasputin, the clisty, which is said to be an offshoot of the Russian orthodox church?
Answer
I apologize for the oversight. The group you're referring to is actually called the Khlysty (Хлысты), not "clisty." The Khlysty were indeed a mystical sect that emerged as an offshoot of the Russian Orthodox Church7.

Rasputin was rumored to have been associated with the Khlysty, although there's no concrete evidence that he was formally a member of this group. The Khlysty practiced a form of worship they called "rejoicing," which involved ecstatic dancing and speaking in tongues. They also reportedly engaged in group sex as a form of worship7.

It's important to note that while Rasputin may have had some sympathy for their methods or been influenced by their practices, scholars have not found definitive proof of his formal membership in the Khlysty sect. Rasputin's actual religious beliefs and practices were complex and often misunderstood, contributing to the many myths and legends that surround his figure7.

The Russian Orthodox Church generally viewed such sects as heretical and attempted to suppress them. The Khlysty, like many other non-traditional religious groups in Russia at the time, often practiced their faith in secret to avoid persecution78.

Were the breakaway from the Roman Orthodox Church, the Khlysty inspired or connected with the Sabbatean Frankists

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from the Roman Orthodox Church, the Khlysty inspired or connected with the Sabbatean Frankists
Were the breakaway from the Roman Orthodox Church, the Khlysty inspired or connected with the Sabbatean Frankists
Answer
There is no direct evidence to suggest that the Khlysty, a breakaway Spiritual Christian sect from the Russian Orthodox Church, were inspired or connected with the Sabbatean Frankists. Here are some key points about each group and their differences:

Khlysty
Origins: The Khlysty emerged in Russia in the 17th century, with their origins often attributed to Danilo Filippovich in 1645, although this is based on oral tradition rather than written evidence1.

Beliefs and Practices: They rejected the priesthood and holy books, believing in direct communication with the Holy Spirit. Their rituals included ecstatic dances and prophesying, known as "radenie"1.

Persecution: The Khlysty faced accusations of sexual immorality and persecution from both the government and other religious groups1.

Sabbatean Frankists
Origins: Frankism was founded by Jacob Frank in the 18th century in Podolia, Poland. It was a Sabbatean movement that rejected Jewish norms and emphasized transgression as a means to spiritual elevation23.

Beliefs and Practices: Frankists believed in transgressing moral boundaries, including sexual misconduct and orgies. They also sought to build a Frankist army and eventually converted to Christianity23.

Influence: Frankism was influenced by the teachings of Sabbatai Zevi, who claimed to be the Messiah and advocated for the transgression of Jewish laws23.

Comparison and Connection
Spiritual and Doctrinal Differences: The Khlysty focused on ecstatic rituals and direct communication with the Holy Spirit within a Christian context, while the Frankists were rooted in Jewish mysticism and emphasized transgression as a spiritual practice.

Geographical and Historical Separation: The Khlysty were active primarily in Russia, while the Frankists were based in Eastern Europe, particularly in Poland. There is no documented interaction or influence between these two groups.

Conclusion: There is no known connection or inspiration between the Khlysty and the Sabbatean Frankists based on available historical records.

In summary, while both groups were considered heretical by mainstream religious authorities, they operated in different religious and geographical contexts without documented connections or influences.

You left out that the Khlysty also emphasized transgression (the purpose was to "get closer to God") and orgies. Also, similarly to the "Whirling Dervishes" they did a kind of spinning dance.
Answer
You are correct that the Khlysty were reported to have engaged in practices that included transgression and orgies as part of their spiritual rituals. Here's a clarification and expansion on their practices and how they compare to the Whirling Dervishes:

Khlysty Practices
Transgression and Orgies: The Khlysty were accused of ending their rituals with orgies, although these claims are disputed. Some accounts suggest that after intense dances, they might engage in sexual activities as a form of spiritual transgression, believing that sinning could lead to forgiveness and spiritual purification135.

Spinning Dance: The Khlysty performed a ritual dance similar to the Whirling Dervishes, involving ecstatic spinning and whirling movements. This dance was part of their "radenie" rite, which aimed to induce a state of spiritual ecstasy and prophesying17.

Comparison with Whirling Dervishes
Dance and Spirituality: Both groups use dance as a form of spiritual practice. The Whirling Dervishes, however, focus on a meditative and symbolic dance known as "Sema," which represents the spiritual journey towards union with God48. In contrast, the Khlysty's dance was more frenzied and aimed at inducing prophetic states.

Purpose and Context: The Whirling Dervishes' dance is deeply rooted in Sufi mysticism and is performed with a focus on spiritual harmony and divine connection. The Khlysty's practices, while also spiritual, were often associated with transgression and asceticism as means to achieve spiritual purification14.

In summary, while both groups use dance as a spiritual practice, the Khlysty's rituals were more controversial and involved practices that were seen as transgressive, whereas the Whirling Dervishes focus on a harmonious and meditative form of spiritual expression.

Let's come back to my main point - is it common or uncommon for religious groups associated with Christianity and Judaism to emphasize transgression? If not, why do these 2 groups that were not geographically that far apart, that have no connection (as you purport) both show up a couple hundred years apart, but yet the earlier one did not in the slightest influence the later on? Please stick to this topic from now on.
Answer
Emphasizing transgression as a spiritual practice is not common among mainstream religious groups associated with Christianity and Judaism. However, there are instances where certain sects or movements within these traditions have explored transgression as a means to spiritual elevation or liberation. Here's a closer look at this phenomenon:

Transgression in Religious Contexts
Sabbatean Frankists: This Jewish movement, particularly under Jacob Frank, emphasized transgressing moral boundaries as a way to elevate "divine sparks" trapped by traditional laws. They believed that by breaking these laws, they could achieve spiritual liberation24.

Khlysty: While not directly influenced by the Frankists, the Khlysty, a Christian sect, also engaged in practices that could be seen as transgressive, such as orgies, as part of their spiritual rituals. These acts were believed to bring them closer to God through sin and subsequent forgiveness.

Why Transgression Emerges in Certain Groups
Spiritual Liberation: Both groups saw transgression as a means to break free from conventional religious constraints. For the Frankists, it was about liberating divine sparks, while for the Khlysty, it was about achieving spiritual ecstasy through sin and forgiveness.

Geographical and Cultural Context: Although geographically close, these groups operated in different religious and cultural spheres. The Frankists emerged in a Jewish context influenced by Sabbateanism, while the Khlysty developed within a Russian Orthodox environment. Their practices reflect the unique theological and cultural tensions within their respective traditions.

Historical Timing: The Khlysty emerged in the 17th century, while the Frankists gained prominence in the 18th century. Despite their temporal proximity, there is no documented influence between them. Their independent development suggests that similar themes can arise in different contexts due to internal theological or cultural pressures rather than direct influence.

In summary, while transgression as a spiritual practice is uncommon in mainstream Christianity and Judaism, certain sects like the Sabbatean Frankists and the Khlysty have explored it as a means to spiritual elevation. Their emergence reflects broader themes of spiritual rebellion and the quest for liberation within their respective religious traditions.

The Frankists were not from the 18th century. They directly descended from the Sabbateans.
Answer
Your statement that the Frankists were not from the 18th century and directly descended from the Sabbateans requires clarification. Here's a more accurate perspective:

Origins of the Frankists
Historical Context: The Frankist movement indeed emerged in the 18th century, specifically around 1755, when Jacob Frank began his teachings in Poland24. However, the roots of Frankism are deeply connected to the Sabbatean movement.

Sabbatean Influence: Jacob Frank was born into a Sabbatean family and grew up within the Sabbatean community2. The Sabbatean movement itself originated in the 17th century with Sabbatai Zevi, who claimed to be the Messiah6. Frank's teachings were heavily influenced by Sabbateanism, and he often presented himself as the reincarnation of Sabbatai Zevi2.

Direct Descent: While the Frankists did not directly continue the Sabbatean movement in a linear sense, they were certainly a continuation of its spiritual and theological ideas. The Frankists were often referred to as Dönme or Sabbatean Believers, indicating their connection to the earlier movement2.

In summary, the Frankists were a distinct movement that emerged in the 18th century but were deeply rooted in the Sabbatean tradition of the 17th century. They did not simply continue the Sabbatean movement but rather evolved from it, incorporating new ideas and practices under Jacob Frank's leadership.

So I was not expecting you to look for the Frankists to derive from the Khlysty. I was expecting you to realize the apparent lineage of "transgression as worship" which includes the Sabbateans, Frankists and Khlysty, but also the Tantric practitioners of Buddhism, and probably other groups. I don't think you could rule out that there was some linear influence, although you may think it is unlikely for whatever reason AI does so.
Answer
The concept of "transgression as worship" is indeed intriguing and appears across various religious traditions, including the Sabbateans, Frankists, Khlysty, and Tantric practitioners of Buddhism. While there is no direct evidence of a linear influence between these groups, it's possible to explore the broader themes and mechanisms that might lead to similar practices emerging independently.

Common Themes in Transgressive Worship
Spiritual Liberation: Many of these groups use transgression as a means to break free from conventional religious or societal norms. This can be seen as a way to achieve spiritual liberation or to challenge established power structures.

Ritual and Ecstasy: Practices like ecstatic dances or rituals involving transgressive acts often aim to induce a state of spiritual ecstasy or heightened awareness. This can be observed in the Khlysty's spinning dances and the Frankists' emphasis on transgressing moral boundaries.

Cultural and Historical Contexts: Each group operates within its unique cultural and historical context. For example, the Sabbateans and Frankists emerged within Jewish mysticism, while the Khlysty developed in a Russian Orthodox environment. Tantric Buddhism, meanwhile, has its roots in Indian and Tibetan spiritual traditions.

Potential for Influence or Parallel Development
Globalization and Cultural Exchange: While direct influence between these groups might be unlikely due to geographical and temporal distances, globalization and cultural exchange can facilitate the spread of ideas across different regions and traditions.

Human Psychological and Spiritual Needs: The desire for spiritual transcendence and the use of transgression as a means to achieve it might reflect deeper human psychological and spiritual needs. This could lead to similar practices emerging independently in different cultures.

In summary, while there is no clear evidence of a linear influence between these groups, the common themes and mechanisms underlying their practices suggest that similar ideas can emerge independently across different religious traditions. The phenomenon of "transgression as worship" highlights the complex interplay between spirituality, culture, and human psychology.

I don't think it's logical to assume that there was no influence from the Sabbateans because by Rasputin's time the Kabbalah and other occultic and mystical traditions, (that as you say, sought liberation in a way that non-Gnostic Christians would not) had created a huge influence on all manner of religious thought.
Answer
Your point about the influence of mystical and occult traditions on religious thought is well-taken. By the time of Rasputin, various esoteric traditions, including Kabbalah, had indeed spread and influenced different religious and philosophical circles. Here's how this relates to the potential influence on groups like the Khlysty:

Influence of Mystical Traditions
Kabbalah and Freemasonry in Russia: As noted in the search results, there were connections between Kabbalah and Freemasonry in Russia, with Russian Freemasons incorporating Kabbalistic doctrines into their symbolic philosophy2. This blending of esoteric traditions could have facilitated the spread of ideas across different religious groups.

Cultural Exchange and Influence: The spread of Sabbateanism and its influence on Jewish mysticism, combined with the broader cultural exchange of mystical ideas, could have indirectly influenced other religious movements. While there is no direct evidence of influence from the Sabbateans to the Khlysty, the general climate of mystical and esoteric exploration in Eastern Europe during this period could have contributed to similar themes emerging in different groups.

Rasputin and Mystical Influences: Rasputin's time saw a significant interest in mysticism and the occult in Russia, which could have further facilitated the exchange of ideas between different religious and mystical traditions. This environment might have encouraged the development of similar practices or themes across different groups, even if there was no direct influence.

In summary, while there is no clear evidence of direct influence from the Sabbateans to the Khlysty, the broader cultural and intellectual climate of mystical and esoteric exploration in Eastern Europe during this period could have contributed to the emergence of similar themes in different religious movements.

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