Praying to the Saints is Deification of the Saints - Responding to Jay Dyer

Key texts that Catholics and Orthodox Christians might use to support praying to saints, along with brief counter-responses for each:

### Key Texts and Counter-Responses

**1. Revelation 5:8**
- **Text:** "And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people."
- **Argument:** This passage is often cited to show that the saints in heaven present the prayers of the faithful to God.
- **Counter-Response:** This verse depicts saints offering prayers to God, but it does not explicitly state that the saints hear and respond to prayers from the living. The role of saints here is more about intercession rather than possessing divine attributes like omniscience.

**2. Revelation 8:3-4**
- **Text:** "Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all God’s people, on the golden altar in front of the throne. The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God’s people, went up before God from the angel’s hand."
- **Argument:** This passage is used to support the idea that saints and angels intercede for the living by presenting their prayers to God.
- **Counter-Response:** Similar to Revelation 5:8, this passage shows the prayers being presented to God but does not indicate that the saints or angels hear and respond to prayers from the living.

**3. Hebrews 12:1**
- **Text:** "Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us."
- **Argument:** This verse is interpreted to mean that the saints in heaven are aware of and involved in our spiritual lives.
- **Counter-Response:** While this verse speaks of a "cloud of witnesses," it does not imply that these witnesses can hear prayers or intercede on behalf of the living. It suggests that their lives serve as examples and encouragement for believers.

**4. 2 Maccabees 15:14-16 (Apocrypha)**
- **Text:** "Then Onias said, 'This is a man who loves his fellow Jews and prays much for the people and the holy city—the prophet of God, Jeremiah.' Jeremiah stretched out his right hand and gave Judas a golden sword, and as he gave it he addressed him thus: 'Take this holy sword, a gift from God, with which you will strike down your adversaries.'"
- **Argument:** This passage is used to show that the deceased prophet Jeremiah interceded for the living.
- **Counter-Response:** While this text from the Apocrypha shows an instance of a deceased figure interceding, it is not part of the canonical scriptures accepted by all Christian denominations. Additionally, it is a unique and isolated incident rather than a normative practice.

**5. Matthew 17:3 (Transfiguration)**
- **Text:** "Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus."
- **Argument:** This event is cited to show that the dead can interact with the living.
- **Counter-Response:** The Transfiguration is a unique event where Moses and Elijah appear to speak with Jesus, not to the disciples. It does not provide a basis for the practice of praying to saints.

Additional Key Texts and Counter-Responses
1. Matthew 22:32

Text: “I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”
Argument: This verse is used to argue that saints are alive in God and can intercede for the living.
Counter-Response: While this verse emphasizes that God is the God of the living, it does not provide explicit support for the practice of praying to saints. It highlights the eternal life of the saints but does not suggest that they can hear and respond to prayers.
2. Luke 16:19-31 (Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus)

Text: In this parable, the rich man in Hades speaks to Abraham, asking for his intercession.
Argument: This passage is sometimes used to show that the dead can intercede for the living.
Counter-Response: This is a parable, not a doctrinal teaching. It illustrates moral lessons rather than establishing a practice of praying to the dead. Additionally, Abraham does not intercede; he simply responds to the rich man’s request.
3. 2 Maccabees 12:44-45 (Apocrypha)

Text: “For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.”
Argument: This passage is used to support the practice of praying for the dead and by extension, the intercession of saints.
Counter-Response: This text is from the Apocrypha, which is not considered canonical by all Christian denominations. Additionally, it discusses praying for the dead, not praying to the dead for intercession.
4. John 15:5

Text: “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.”
Argument: This verse is used to argue that the connection between believers and Christ extends beyond death, supporting the idea of intercession by saints.
Counter-Response: While this verse emphasizes the unity of believers in Christ, it does not provide a basis for praying to saints. It speaks to the relationship between believers and Christ, not the intercessory role of saints.
5. James 5:16

Text: “Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.”
Argument: This verse is used to support the idea that the prayers of the righteous (including saints) are powerful and effective.
Counter-Response: This verse encourages believers to pray for one another but does not suggest praying to deceased saints. It emphasizes the power of prayer among the living community of believers.