Patrick Henningsen: Israel, Gaza, Axis of Resist., Russia, Ukraine | Pod & Co. Ep 08

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGK5iHDa4ks

Patrick henningson welcome to the propaganda and Co podcast it's great to be with you it's wonderful to have you here today I'd like to introduce you to my audience your we'll talk about your career as well but before that I think we'll hop right into the nitty-gritty and get into the topics that a lot of people I think want to get to so I want to start with October 7th that's why I'm here that's why this channel exists uh I know you've been doing your work for a very long time prior to October 7th I'm actually curious uh to hear as somebody who's been covering Palestine for two decades now either covering it directly through your journalism or paying attention to it as someone who cares about the cause of the Palestinian people what were your thoughts on October 7th it let's just say I wasn't I was surprised in how it happened and how dramatic it was uh from from the Palestinian resistance side um I was not surprised that it happened I was surprised it happened in I didn't think I'd see it in my lifetime there's so many people that were just exasperated um over over the summer what happened in Janine was was just another reminder of how horrific it is but to see the the despondency in terms of the outrage and the the so difficult to Garner gather support for the issue issue it's very frustrating you almost think that this this issue is just going to die on the vine and you're not going to see anything change nothing's going to move the needle on this issue and after October 7th um it's that's changed and so to me it's just another very dramatic episode in a long series of episodes going back 80 years but a lot of people who are you know on social media or uh active in politics this was the first time they're really having to confront this issue so for them history began on October 7th but for those that have been uh engaged in the issue for a long time this is just another sort of maybe an escalation and maybe a a a big moment in history but again it's it's part of a long series of of events so from that point of view you can see how polarizing it is and how it's been attached to partisan politics in the US and how it's congealed in that way it's just because a lot of people have never paid attention to the issue don't understand it don't know the history of it but a lot of people got a crash course in that now and you're seeing the student protests or right across us and Europe as well and how well informed a lot of the young people are on this issue now it's another thing that I never thought I'd see in my lifetime so you mentioned how I guess I guess from the resistance perspective or the standpoint the performance of the resistance that it was shocking or unlike anything that you've seen that's how I felt so I've been covering Palestine or paying attention to Palestine I should say really since 2008 when I was in high school graduating and I saw every time Israel mowed the grass so to speak or mowed the lawn in Gaza and I've seen you know some of what the resistance was capable of in terms of firing Rockets but so as someone who's been paying attention to Palestine whether you know as an activist and organizer making videos about it I obviously care about Palestine but every time there was another flare up I would just think I've seen this before October 7th when I saw the imagery I remember it was like maybe 3: or 4 in the morning and a friend in the group chat said did you guys see what's happening in Palestine now I've heard this a million times in the last like 14 years right but then when I saw the paragliders in the air I thought okay I've never seen this before and I started paying more and more attention and I I understood very quickly what the size and scope of the attack was and I realized right away this is unlike anything I've ever seen before from a tactical perspective if you could comment briefly on what the resistance did and why it has struck so much fear in Israeli Society I think they made a big statement um a big statement on October 7th and this obviously went right to the core of the uh the whole the whole the whole agreement the the social contract if you will in the state of Israel especially with the current leadership that let's say been in power for the most part of you know 25 years Benjamin Netanyahu and the lud uh Coalition is the social contract is come to Israel and we protect you this is the safest place on the planet for uh Jew in the world and we'll you know we'll give you settlements we're building new settlements every day they advertise them all over the all in America at through Charities and the jnf and people like this these various organizations they're constantly marketing Israel as a a destination to go and settle and to live and and then the IDF will be there they have this fantastic intelligence service this great military they're omnipotent in terms of knowledge and surveillance and so forth It's safe it's absolutely a safe place and the Iron Dome is there to uh repel any Rockets from Hezbollah or Hamas and so forth so all of that that was shattered on October 7th and then it it was shattered even more so when the fighting broke out in the northern occupied territories along the South Lebanon border and you can see these Villages emptying out one by one so now you have a a collapse in the Israeli dream so politically this has huge ramifications going forward but just from the we we had seen like over the last couple of years more coordination between Palestinian resistance groups whereas before they appeared to be desperate not as coordinated maybe not as focused and we you started seeing Israel getting hit over the last five years in especially in when operations that the IDF would launch in Gaza and we saw scenes over the last few years that I were new you know RPGs attacking Israeli soldiers and vans and so forth and the attempted uh incursions by the IDF were repelled or ended badly so you knew things were ramping up this was I think a great achievement from armed resistance and armed Liberation struggle point of view now that's obviously a perspective that's verboten in the west you can't talk about it in that framework but this is effectively what it is it's always been like this for show me a country that achieved Independence I'll show you an armed Liberation struggle look at thec in South Africa as the example everybody uses so whether you support Hamas or not whether you think they're a terrorist organization or they're an armed Liberation struggle or not you cannot argue with what you saw on October 7th this was a military defeat for the IDF and that means things will never be the same so and much much like in 2006 when Hezbollah defeated uh Israel in that war and were effectively kicked out of South Lebanon most of it um that was a game Cher I think in in the alignment of let's say the distribution of power in the region and I think equally this was one of those moments now we can talk about the Israeli reaction to this that added a whole another dimension to it but you know you have to be I think you have to be agnostic when you're looking at these things because in the moment everybody wants to say you know Piers Morgan do you condemn Hamas that's how the conversation begins in any discourse any dialogue but you know zoom out look at this historically uh and it's a different conversation this is an ongoing battle an ongoing fight against uh oppression against Colonial occupation as recognized by multiple un resolutions but all of a sudden everything that happened before October 7th was erased from the frame and Were Meant to Western mainstream media Western politics want to reduce the frame that history begins on October 7th and any conversations about what happened before that are are irrelevant and will be muted and you will be hered if you even try to make those arguments on some of these platforms that's how it was in the initial emotive reaction to October 7th the other thing was there's uh the theory or the idea that Israel let it happen that Israel let that's kind of an important idea because if you adopt that as your main hypothesis your main thesis then you basically strip the Palestinian armed resistance uh of any agency in other words and you take away any military achievement in that so that's an interesting argument I see people making that and maybe even if this was true the further you get away from October 7th the less the less relevant that point becomes because things have uh taken on a life of their own inertia events have cascaded Way Beyond October 7th and so Israel let it happen you know if that's the sort of overriding conspiracy it doesn't have a lot of utility at this point I think it is important to discuss and focus on though and I'm very glad that you brought that up and the reason why is because like you said earlier this idea that with the social contract that Israel has right come here we'll protect you and you know our secret intelligence services are omnipotent we know everything right and I think that was shattered on October 7th to suggest suest that they knew it would happen and let it happen anyway suggest that they are omnipotent they knew what would happen and they're so intelligent they're able to twist it and in exchange they'll ethnically cleanse Gaza and acquire this land and they'll achieve this long dream and goal that they've had for however many decades now to cleanse Gaza of Palestinians so I think it's actually dangerous you know to present it in this way and I don't think it's um I don't think it's it's correct I think objectively looking at the situation many military analysts agree that the IDF walked into if not a trap but a quagmire in Gaza and they have uh undermine themselves I think by by doing that they're losing a lot of money their soldiers are you know committing suicide when they come back it's having an effect on Israeli society and I think it's hurt their reputation we're seeing the resistance get very creative in Gaza and I think uh I don't want to suggest that the resistance thought it would go this far and they were willing to sacrifice however many Palestinian lives I think people don't like considering that but like you said show me uh a Liberation or show me how did you phrase it show me a show me show me an independence uh movement around the world throughout history and I'll show you an armed Liberation struggle exactly and this is just to me another example of that it's it's couched in the you know it's funny because the term terrorist group is a political designation and it's applied by by some countries to uh the Palestinian resistance there's many different factions in in in Gaza resistance factions the uh Islamic Jihad uh you have the alasan brigades that's effectively the military wing of of Hamas you have the pflp all these different uh groups and so they if they're acting in concert for some kind of a shared objective or military objective or goal uh you have to kind of look at this into kind of a in military terms um so yeah this is this is one of those moments in history and if the US designate them as a terrorist organization and Britain and France then the conversation then gets stripped out of military analysis and it's into the war on terror bracket and the war on terror bracket uh means that you can suspend the normal rule of law you can suspend the rules of War at least in the public domain terms of public sentiment because we're we've been trained to believe over the last since 911 especially that the worst possible thing in the world is Islamic Terror and uh anything goes in terms of what the uh response should be to deal with the problem even if it's occupying Afghanistan for 20 years bombing Iraq into the Stone Age that's all acceptable from a western point of view to eliminate the problem and that's ex exactly the rhetoric that Israel and Israel supporters have adopted uh post October 7th so it's very interesting if you take Hezbollah for instance um or Hamas they're not a proscribed terrorist organization according to every government on the planet only certain governments do if with Hezbollah France I if I'm not mistaken people can check they're not prescribed as a terrorist organization uh and they're represented in the Lebanese Parliament the political Wing because in a way France is in a conundrum there because if they label Hezbollah as a terrorist group then they'll have to label the French Resistance during World War II in vichi France that were opposing a Nazi German occupation as a terrorist group if you go by the same logic so it it presents all sorts of problems and the problem is in the conversation and we're not allowed to have an objective analytical conversation by inserting the ter terorist framework it's an emotive conversation and it's Do or Die basically and it becomes a zero some game at that point that's the difference and and it is important and I know that a lot of talk show hosts immediately come out uh terrorist attack on October 7th the terrorist group and so forth the US government certainly uses that language and it means that you don't have to analyze anything you don't even have to look at the causes of what got you to that moment in history because all everything gets expunged from the past and it's all about fighting terrorism and if that means collateral damage is going to be incurred with civilians then so be it that's kind of where we're at right now on this conversation globally I want to talk about Free Speech a little later I know that you have a lot to say about that um but it's interesting quickly I just want to point out you were talking about the way you know they frame the conversation and they box you in history started on October 7th you're not allowed to provide context and this isn't just taking place on like the P Pierce Morgan talk show or on CNN or mainstream media but it's happening on social media in general for example uh meta has been notorious for striking down you know Pro Palestine content uh if you talk about Palestine in the context of humanitarian Aid they'll they'll let you post about it my account was deleted three times and returned to me four times so I'm on Instagram now but I've learned my lesson I cannot talk about provide I cannot provide context for October 7th and there's certain Israeli propaganda I'm not allowed to debunk if I put out a video talking about M and the hoax there uh they will strike that video down if I talk about if I provide context hey here's why the resistance carried out this attack they don't consider context as being educational or informative they consider it as supporting terrorism and so they've eliminated the ability to talk about I mean how can you help people understand that history didn't start on October 7th this is what the world was like for pal prior and this is you know regardless of whether you support what the resistance did on October 7th doesn't matter it's just like here's why it happened here's what they were thinking which is helpful for people to understand I think but they have stripped you know the that our ability to even discuss that so I'm glad that you talked about the way they're framing the conversation so and I might add it's exactly the way that the conversation is framed with regards to Ukraine and Russia that history began on February 25th 2022 Putin woke up on the wrong side of the bed and decided to invade Ukraine uh just because he felt like it and to uh reconstitute the glory of the former Russian Empire that's literally the the the talking points adopted by Western mainstream media and the whole of the the political class uh in the US and the EU and they don't want to tell you about the shelling of civilians in dumbass 8 n years before for the fact that there's a mxed peace process that was on the table that was even uh ratified effectively by the UN Security Council they had a mandate for this and all of that basically was thrown out the window so it's it's the same thing the frame gets reduced so no context allowed and they decide how the narrative is going to go they decide when history begins and this is this is so orwellian and then they enforce that on Wikipedia they enforce that on meta they enforce that on uh Google YouTube uh to to some degree although there's a little bit more speech allowed on that but that's and there's so many examples of this as well I mean 911 is a good example um is is another example of that take any conflict and it's not it didn't happen in a vacuum it is it just it the latest in a Gestalt of events that cause and effect and if we don't understand and we can't speak about we can't analyze we can't debate cause and effect and context then we can't learn anything so how can we make policy that makes sense we can't and they're not having those debates at the political level at the policy level the people who are formulating foreign policy or the reactions to what's happening in the world they're not having that discussion the Press isn't having it so the people aren't going to have it so where where are we at that point you know how uh how well are we doing as a kind of you know democracy at that point I want to come back to October 7th if we can uh how has October 7th in your view changed the political landscape in the Middle East and the world the I I think the the Israeli reaction to October 7th and we can debate about what actually happened about October 7 that's just another discussion and a very important discussion essential discussion which I know is a big part of your work and we could talk about that but the reaction by Israel the uh the completely over-the-top um Anni it's kind of they chose to kind of annihilate Gaza and the people in it and justify that for the various reasons that they've said um it's it has changed for for the region it's it's brought together I think the axis of resistance countries so for those people who might not be familiar with that concept it's uh the axess of resistance comprises of first and foremost the Palestinian resistance then uh Hezbollah in Lebanon uh which is a semi-state actor it's not a non-state actor it's a semi-state actor uh the Syrian Arab Republic and everything within that country uh the Iraqi Islamic resistance the hasht shabi the people's mobilization units in Iraq uh the Islamic Republic of Iran uh aner Allah aka the houthis as the westerners call them in Yemen uh and I might have left out one possibly an actor there but that's effectively the axess of resistance it's it's help it's brought it together uh with a common purpose uh a common objective now and uh an urgency to stop what is an ongoing genocide in Gaza now the best the best uh Vanguard of the axis of resistance the country that's enforcing international law within the axis of resistance uh the best example of that is is answer Allah in Yemen they're basically announcing sanctions against Israel and they're enforcing them on the high seas in exactly the same way the United States would and Britain have done seizing Iranian oil tankers but with with actually with a with a stronger case because the case they're acting on is in the international courts of justice so the they're trying to enforce international law one of the poorest countries in the world Yemen or at least part of Yemen under the control of an Allah um they're using what resources they have to basically interdict Israeli shipping or anybody providing material support to the state of Israel I mean this is extraordinary no one's ever stepped up and done what the US have done in terms of backing up sanctions with hard power and here it is so that is a game Cher April 14th when Iran struck uh missiles and drones the attack uh hitting Israel targets that that that is a major game changer that's the biggest my opinion that's the biggest realignment in Middle Eastern politics and distribution of power in the Middle East and globally maybe maybe since Russia intervened in the Syrian conflict in October 2015 and transformed the Dynamics of power in the region because all of a sudden before all major decisions had to go through Washington now they have to also go through Moscow they have to go through Tran and uh and I think Iran had established itself as a regional maybe maybe the premier Regional Hedon as a result of what they did and the fact that they weren't really there was no really ret real retaliation from Israel and but that's not the first time that happened when after the assassination of kasum sulamani and abuad Mendes in Iraq uh Iran waited and they decid then they hit us bases um and facilities and just leveled the uh I think it's the al-assad air uh base military base in Iraq the US didn't respond that was under a trump Administration they didn't respond what could they how could they respond what could they do uh that was in I believe uh 2020 January 2020 they couldn't respond why because Iran has strategic um uh an strategic advantage through missile technology and advances in their missile programs they also hit Targets in uh Isis Targets in deror a few few years before that uh and also Targets in idlip as well in Syria so they've demonstrated that they can reach that distance and that the US will not respond and this has happened three me four times if you count the Downing of a US Global Hawk drone by Iranian air defenses us didn't respond what can the US do now we realize the US does not have any strategic strong footing in the region anymore because another country has risen that has uh the ability to hit us targets and then the US has to make a calculation do we want to lose all of our footprint in the region by confronting Iran and escalating or do we want to preserve what we have and then wait and reconfigure later and they've chose the latter so and this is direct result of what's happened uh after October 7th not only that that's not even to say about the global support for the Palestinian cause that goes as far as Beijing that used to be agnostic on this issue and this is interesting because people thought oh the Chinese are immoral they're they don't care about the suffering of anybody in the world they just care about business this this that that Trope has been shattered after October 7th so th those are just a few examples um of how things have changed and and they're not the only ones either probably the biggest though the biggest thing that's changed is if you look at Israeli influence and Power in the world Israel's greatest weapon is not its military it's not like much like America it's not necessarily it's military it's not its Financial prowess it has a great Tech sector and the defense sector it's soft power it's the Israeli story it's the fact that enough people in the world are sympathetic to the Israeli narrative and the Israeli story they so what Israel has done by its reaction its overreaction on October 7th it sacrificed its most valuable long-term strategic asset and that is its soft power its story it's its story is a victim nation that has been shattered because of its over-the-top incredible outrageous uh violent war of annihilation against the Palestinian people in Gaza they sacrificed their best asset for short-term tactical or you could even say strategic gain that to me is an extraordinary uh moment in history because it took all of those decades to build that Israeli story and just like this it's completely shattered and nobody will ever look at this country the same again as a result of the horror and the daily diet of horrific images uh that people have been uh forced to look at that are coming out of Gaza and that is something that a lot of people would have they could never have seen that coming but it's happened and at a huge price for the Palestinian people of course they bear the biggest price for this in in human terms but Israel has paid a huge price for their actions going forward that this put this this brings into question the legitimacy of the Israeli uh state of the Israeli settler Colonial project as it was you know formed in the 1940s it brings it all into question I think for me domestically here in America we've seen a major shift after October 7th and I think we're seeing it partly because of the America first movement but also just in general I think in the conserv ative uh population of America there is finally a discussion over Israel's influence and it's Fierce on X you don't see it on other places but you see it on X and for me I think that's significant because I think what has happened after October 7th is the Zionist Lobby which essentially is an extension of Israel has revealed how much power they have and you can't challenge power if you don't know who has it and for us because we've been paying attention for so long we know who has power and we know how they use that power to silence people to get them canceled to completely protect Israel and its war crimes from criticism from exposure and that has been flipped on its head now and people are finally waking up and they're paying attention and they're saying why are these congressmen and women like zombies just repeating what APAC is telling them to do and now under all these tweets from these congressmen and women you're seeing average white conservative Americans post a picture a screenshot of APAC you know how much money APAC has given this specific candidate so Marco Rubio says something $587,000 that's why you're talking about Israel and that has finally been revealed and exposed and to me that's significant because 10 years ago we saw the liberal left I guess you could say the Democrats not really the left but you know what I mean the Democratic party there was a huge shift where the Israelis lost many supporters from the Democratic party especially the youth the Millennials and and the generations that come after and I think the zionists understood that they lost those populations and they're not going to get them back but at least they still had the majority of conservatives on the right and they were not going to lose them they lost them I feel like this time that Rift has been created and that Gap is widening bigger and bigger faster and faster and we're seeing that with the vitreal towards media platforms like the daily wire that they now call the Israeli wire and that's been exposed so for me that's significant because I think changing the conversation about America's relationship with Israel within America itself I think that's crucial I'd like to ask you this I've heard you say that Israel is trapped in a death spiral what do you mean by that I mean the Cur the current situation is the current government the Netanyahu LED coalition they're they're they're locked into a political and Military death spiral um if the war stops if there's a negotiated settlement then netanyahu's political career is finished not only that the that Coalition could be severely damaged why because the minute you stop a state of emergency during a state of emergency everything is suspended normal business is suspended normal politics are suspended why why cuz there's a there's a war going on and everybody needs to be on board and all resources need to be marshaled political cognitive everything media support everyone's got to be on board and be patriotic Etc but the minute it stops the minute it stops what happens the public has a the Israeli public in this case will have a moment to pause and think and reflect even if it's a moment and a lot of other thoughts are going to come in during that period This is why there's this active effort by the US by European allies to prevent any ceasefire to prevent a negotiate settlement exactly the same as they're doing in Ukraine blocking any peace negotiations talking down intimidating people hounding people who are even suggesting it as John Kirby did uh many times from the state department uh a pentagon Podium the White House Podium and why is that because the Ukrainian people like the Israeli people have a moment to pause and think how did we get here this is this is incredible this is outrageous this is a crazy situation we need to hit the brakes so they're locked in a death spiral in Tel Aviv because if they if they if they stop they're out of power and it gives the world a chance to reflect Common Sense could enter the void if they keep going the longer they keep going uh uh brutally brutally uh pounding the native Palestinian population in Gaza and the West Bank the minute they keep going doing this over and over then internationally the reputation continues to sink and it gets solidified and Netanyahu will be alongside the pantheon of dictators in history this is where he's going to end up and I think they live in such a propaganda bubble within Israeli Society they're the last people that are probably going to realize this that uh because they're they're insulated from a lot of the uh I think a lot of the criticism unless they travel around the world that they and in America the way it's been descent against this protest has been cast as anti-Semitism this a phantom wave of anti-Semitism appeared out of nowhere and so it's not descent against Israel committing genocide and killing 40 or 50,000 Palestinians it's anti-semitism so by by adopting that propaganda facade they've been able to Stave off the Reckoning the Reckoning that eventually will come the political or the historical Reckoning will eventually come but in the short term they've staved it off but the truth and what what's actually happened the political reality will eventually hit home it maybe not today maybe not next week but over time it's going to be there and all they're doing is kicking the can down the road so they're damned if they do damned if they don't and sadly a lot of uh people in Israeli Society support the idea of you know solving the final solution to the Palestinian problem which is ethnic cleansing there's a lot of people that support that and there's a lot of people that support the military operation that the Israeli forces have undertaken and they they have no problem with the death toll in the Palestinian side now that am I speaking for every single Israeli probably not but enough people support that because if they didn't this government wouldn't be doing what they're doing right now so this is a tragic situation you know they might think they're surviving in the short term but long term they really kind of the the whole idea of Israel as a viable State as a concept as a political as a polity it's sinking it's not the first time in history this has happened that there have been failed states in the history of the world many failed States and the first the first trigger for a failed state is when you enact an apartheid system or you start treating people differently based on their ethnicity their race their religion that's the beginning of a failed State the same thing happened in Ukraine they're trying to separate Russian speakers from Ukrainian speakers that's really and the US was backing those divisions just like the the US was and Israel too have an interest in you know driving a wedge between sunnis and Shiites in Iraq especially that was a strategy by us intelligence by the US military um clearly that was a strategy and in same in Central America uh you have the same sort of ideological wedgees being driven during the Dirty Wars in El Salvador and Nicaragua and I could go on and on but those are the beginnings of failed States at that point and Ukraine is effectively has become almost a failed State as a result of this so whether it's Tribal ethnic ideological divisions this is what happens when the government takes that path and they've taken that path so they can't I don't think they can come back from that and it's going to be a very very uh rough road ahead now I don't want to be pessimistic but there is something unique about Israel and the Zionist project project a lot of people compare Israel to South Africa and they draw parallels but there is a difference and it's not just the demographics of the population uh it is also I think the fact that the Zionist Lobby is so influential like why is the Zionist Lobby able to get away with so much in the United States it's because of the way that they have mastered the electoral system they know how to get you elected they know how to get you you kicked out of office no one is better uh in this country when it comes to lobbying I don't even think the fossil fuel industry can compete the zionists are the best they own the politicians so I don't want to be pessimistic and suggest that if there's anyone who can get away with such a crime and keep kicking this can down the road so to speak it would be the state of Israel what do you think about that in terms of us support I think you're right in terms of global support um they have turned a dark corner and they will never recover from this ever there's nothing they can do to recover so that's I think the die has been cast internationally within the US I think it's only a question of time before this Lobby collapses under the weight of its own I don't know egging the omelet to a degree that has just become um ridiculous and the amount of money behind it which you rightly point out is it's it's funny they have to spend I I probably have to spend more money on Democrats um than Republicans because but not not in recent years no and so H how did they control the unipar there used to be uh more of a pro Palestinian I think sentiment on the left but when the Democratic party uh sort of shed its class Consciousness and became an elite neoliberal party then at that point it became indistinguishable from Republicans just on the on the on the Republican on the right side of the so-called conservative side you have the Christian Zionist Evangelical component that's very strong and that that solidifies the Lobby's power on the right but it's funny um if you look at the military funding bill that was rushed through Congress the it was pretty much a whipline vote on the Democrat side you know so there's no denters for you know money for Israel and Ukraine but on the Republican side there were dissenters so you have actually more opposition on the right traditionally it was George Bush Senor he uh censured the Israeli leadership during his presidency Ronald Reagan did did the same over why did they do that um well for for Lebanon uh in in the early 80s Ronald Reagan uh basically read the riot act to Israel that was regarded as the father of modern conservatism uh George Bush Senor uh similarly was the most tough probably in terms of uh negotiations or criticizing Israel putting the breakes on things that it was doing George Bush Jr even George W bush with regards to a shiron settlement issue but in recent years uh and Obama to some degree at least rhetorically not policy-wise but in recent years now between Biden Trump there's there's almost there's almost no difference this idea that Joe Biden isn't good for Israel after what we've seen over the last seven months he's given Israel more than any other US president in history the fact that he's made noises about hitting the breakes after 7 months and the worst horror that the world has ever witnessed in the modern era in such a short space of time um is is laughable as a talking point they say Biden's weak he's not supporting Israel he's enemy is Israel so this it becomes a partisan election your talking point um of brinksmanship it's ridiculous so um you have a uni party the lobby will primary Thomas Massie for instance they're saying we're going to primary you we're going to fund your opposition will go after you because you are not on board with our agenda so that's a foreign Lobby in the United States basically you know going after uh congressmen or senators get trying to actively get them out of office because they're not supporting their issue which is a foreign issue I mean that's incredible this is election interference just the money alone the sums of money we're talking about that's election interference on a on a incredible level this is the thing that they accused Russia of doing in the 2016 election but couldn't come up with any actual evidence to prove it here you have a open and shut clear-cut case of not just massive interference but literally a Wag the Dog scenario where this this tale is absolutely wagging the the global hedgemon Washington to the point where um it it's now demanding total support right across the board and anybody who's not going to support Israel they're going to take them down and ruin their political career I mean this is incredible imagine any other country doing that in Washington and it's acceptable they're trying to pass legislation to defund Congress the latest one trying to float a bill to defund the Department of Defense the National Security Council uh and the Pentagon if Israel doesn't if Biden doesn't promise to give Israel everything it needs in perpetuity for forever I mean unbelievable but this is this is where we're at politically so there's a lot of fear I think people are this you could say it's intimidation I'm going to call it political racketeering because that's what it is it's racketeering on a very International level with hundreds of millions of dollars in slush funds and we're starting to see the results of it us is backing Israel in a losing Gambit against its own interests against us interests against its own foreign policy interests against the wishes of some of its allies it's ostracizing and will ultimately further isolate the United States at a time when it cannot afford not to have as many allies when you look at an Empire that's in Decline this is when the Empire needs allies more than ever and the US has a you know is is shunning and even attacking in some cases um it's allies are threatening them with sanctions I mean this is unbelievable they're making all the wrong moves at a time when their power is on slightly in Decline uh and and Israel's in effect effectively dragging the us down with it on this issue and that's how a lot of people are looking at it you could say the same for Britain as well dragging the reputation down but especially the United States because overwhelmingly if you look at the UN General Assembly you look at even the vote for to recognize Palestine as a UN member um the the world overwhelmingly supports the Palestinian side but the usn's Allies don't but they don't represent the world and that's a problem we still live in a globalized economy we live in a globalized political International System you you can't throw up these this level of of barriers between political diplomat atic barriers and that's exactly what's happening as a result of Israel and having to back it 100% without any qualification I know it's very hard to do so but I would like your prediction how and when how and when does The Invasion in genocide of Gaza come to an end that's a really difficult one I look at it like this if if Israel cannot apply the breakes themselves under their own Steam and it doesn't look like they can then that leaves only a few other options one of them is that the United States or a more powerful country will impose finally impose a political settlement or impose their will on Israel to to to pause and to stop okay that might happen we we've seen noises to that effect of recently uh Biden saying we're going to Halt armed shipments if they invade Rafa for instance all sorts of caveats with that but let's say that that doesn't happen then the other option is and the other scenario is if other countries in the region move in to forcibly stop Israel um by attacking it militarily from multiple angles and depleting its resources tying it up and forcing the US to to decide whether they want to escalate to almost a World War III situation that will involve Iran and Iran's allies maybe Russia and other countries or do they want to avoid that altogether and literally just put a stop to what is an ongoing genocide in Gaza um so those are some are more likely than others and some of those are horrific World War III is a horrific uh escalating scenario so but that's the only thing that's going to stop it it doesn't look like Israel's prepared to stop they I think Israeli Society the hard right in Israel the radical extremist Coalition they see the finish line of they want netanyahu's Legacy he said I I want to be the one to have who has uh won Gaza for the state of Israel that's how he's saying it there're in their mind they're so close they're so close do you think he sees himself as a king of the Jews um I don't but I I think he sees himself as a uh significant historical figure in the uh Jewish or the Israeli story and he definitely wants to be remembered with a powerful Legacy that he delivered like benguan or uh gold deir he he wants to be in that sort of regarded in that uh have you know airports named after him and so forth um definitely there is I think a little bit of megalomania at play there because he's working against the interests of his own State his own government it can't it can't be in their long-term interest I mean they have really kind of surpassed the point of no return M so do you think they understand that I I I think throughout history you see these lapses of judgment the megalomania the doubling down so once you pass a certain threshold to to stop or to to reverse is considered defeat and your and will be your personal political defeat and and it's happened many times in history people people carry on to to keep the the story going and in the end they d destroy themselves their government and the the entire country let me ask you this will there be a Palestinian State and if so what does it look like yeah this is this is an interesting question because it's it's it's evolved over the years I think when we had this conversation 20 years ago um during the Oslo Accords and negotiations a two-state solution was seen as to 6 6 7 borders even less than that was seen as a viable alternative over the years it's it's become evident to everybody that there is no viable two-state solution because realistically Israel will never give up control over the roads the security roads effectively a web of you know banto stands they're not going to allow an airport any kind of standing military uh maybe not even a working Port maybe not even porest borders it will still be they'll still want control over the security of the Palestinian territor so there is no State a sort of collection of patches of land Gaza and bits and pieces of the West Bank and the Jordan Valley that's not a state and and it's not it's not sovereign if it uh doesn't have control over its water electricity uh it's airspace it's telecommunications um and it's not able to defend itself um it's it's not a state so it just it's just becomes a sort of uh I don't know an occupied and everything but name an occupied territory so but more people are even the hard left are now talking about a one-state solution they're saying well the future is a one-state solution we're seeing more talk of this over time I think it's a generational thing it's the same in Ireland the unification of Ireland out of the question 20 years ago because that generation there's too much bad blood um there's just too too many things attached to the past as the Boomers cycle out of the story and gen Z comes in they don't have that natural animous or dislike or you know vengeful uh ideas between the North and South of Ireland they're they're more amicable to a United Ireland I think the same in the Middle East um I think over time more people will see the benefit of a one-state solution that's just my personal view because the other one is a non-starter a two-state solution is a non-starter what shape that takes what it's called that's up for the people in the region to decide you know what Palestinians want it's up for really is for Palestinians to decide not the United States they tried that before but is it really up to the Palestinians it it it it's not but it but it should be and and so then that brings us to the other key Point what are our Val what are our values in the west do we believe in self-determination do we believe in sovereignty do we believe in equal rights do we believe in one state everybody treated equally under the law with a Bill of Rights and maybe a constitution we certainly espouse that in America we export that verifly and we do it at the barrel of a gun sometimes even though that's not exactly what we're exporting but we we certainly talk about this that those are our first principles so if if we wouldn't accept anything less in America why would we accept something like an apartheid system or worse a violent oppressive apartheid system in in the Middle East from our greatest Ally why why is that okay for the region but not okay here certainly we should be advocating what we have in in the Middle East whatever sh that takes but the current situation what we're supporting there which is an ethn nationalist exclusionary state of Israel uh and then this sort of reservation system for the native Palestinian population um that's not even that's well you could argue that this even still exists here in America but um not to get into the Native American conversation that's an interesting debate but so what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander in that respect and that's that level of hypocrisy is becoming now uh recognized by a lot of people in the world and again this this undercuts the US legitimacy in terms of its rhetoric and its soft power its message is now being undercut by its own policies and actions and you can blame these issue and their support for Israel for a large part of that right now transitioning now we talked briefly about the axes of resistance but I know there's a lot to talk about with Russia Ukraine so I think I'd like to transition to Russia Ukraine if we can so I want to talk to you about um how insane this war is I describe it as such because normally if there were a war like this we would view it as just another proxy War which is tragic right but it it's not it would not be surprising the military-industrial complex this is how they make their money uh in some ways I guess the US can advance their own interests but most of the time it's usually just profit and we've seen that in in all parts of the world but the reason why I I describe the Russia Ukraine war as insane and I'm sure you and many others would as well is because this is a proxy war on the border of a nuclear powerered nation that that once was a superpower is now a major power and could be potentially returning to some level of superpower status and they have the most nuclear weapons the most sophisticated nuclear weapons and you know even if they had 50% of the capabilities they have in terms of nuclear weapons they could produce an Armageddon on Earth and so uh I want to ask you in your view what is Russia Ukraine really about the the the Russia Ukraine conflict it's an old story um and some would say well this goes right back to the end of the second world war and certainly we can start the analysis from there but in reality this goes back even further this goes back three maybe 400 years this goes back to uh we we can take this story as far back as you'd like but let's just start with the British Empire and its rivalry with the Russian Empire I hate to pause you for a second but is this the Vladimir Putin Tucker Carlson type of response no we go way back in time I'm all for it I just think it's funny I feel like we're kind of mirroring that a little bit no no there's a thing called the great game okay and so the Britain fought the Crimean War uh in the mid 1900s and this controlling uh controlling the East West Trade route or preventing uh an Overland trade route why because uh Britain was the Merchant Navy power of the world so that made sense um not only that but separating uh Russia from Germany or you can't have good relations because the moment with its landmass that Russia becomes Allied to the industrial superpower of Europe that changes the whole Global Dynamics in terms of economics it's very interesting that you bring this up because this is something I wanted to get this was part of my follow-up question so I'm sorry to interrupt because I want to hear more about what you're going to say about this but you're talking about the relationship between Russia and Germany in the modern context correct yeah yeah in the last 200 years oh last 200 years okay okay okay so then uh continue sorry for the interruption I'll I'll make my point in a bit but so so that's it's it's all it's always been about that for the British Empire to maintain their hedony and then when they passed the Baton to the United States um post second second world war this became uh again this continued this imperative so from howford mackinder the great uh uh British geographer and the world Island Theory who controls the world Island controls the world and then passed on to zabu brazinski who is one of the preeminent uh you know National Security thinkers a trilateral uh postor War II to continue that which is to divide uh Asia from Europe you cannot have Synergy because why then this the the geopolitical center of gravity and the economic center of gravity shifts Eastward and what does that do that cuts the United States out of its control of Europe and European Affairs and if you look at what happened after the second world war the United States has always regarded Ukraine as the vulnerable underbelly of the Soviet Union so a lot of their resources they kept stay behind operations they supported former SS and not see uh you know militant groups in that country politically in Poland as well as in Ukraine Western Ukraine they've always seen that as as a potential weak point for the Soviet Union geost strategically um and so when they establish NATO after the second world war NATO allowed the United States full control over European political economic and Military Affairs and it that that amorphous organiz a NATO led by the US and Britain the two dominant members and everybody else is really a junior partner or an significant partner in that organization if it was a European Collective defense where would the us be kind of out of the picture in terms of Defense procurement and in terms of look uh dominating the agenda for Europe look at what happened since the Ukraine war kicked off the US is now dominating Europe NATO is the number one organization they're dictating economic policy they can dictate the US who you trade who you buy oil from who you buy gas from they'll they can determine your economic bottom line so what's happened is because of this latest phase in the Ukraine conflict starting on February 25th 2022 you've seen the European economy come down a notch as a result and German industry fleeing Germany Germany is now in one of the weakest points it's been since the second world war and that is a radical shift in in such a short amount of time like this because of sanctions and other policies and backing this this proxy war this is incredible so that's the engine of Europe uh is now in a deflated economic position Europe is now energy dependent more than ever from the United States and LNG coming over so the US control and are profiting from this crisis more than never it's not just about profits it's about control and so again you see what they've done the the center of gravity is not towards Moscow it's back towards Washington yes and so the European Union has been taken down a few notches and taught a lesson by the US and the British and as the British withdrew from the EU very timely just before this uh the hostilities in Ukraine ramped up to a big level it's interesting how yeah this is a very unique perspective and I don't hear this enough I listen to Mir shimer I listen to Jeffrey saak Scott Ritter I haven't spoken to me shimer or saxs yet but the idea from their perspective is that this is this runs counter to us interest but actually I think you've made a very good argument and I don't know if I'm I don't want to put words in your mouth so you confirm for me if I'm understanding you correctly but you've made a very good argument for why this war actually does make sense for the United States geopolitically in terms of their strategic interest because it's not just for uh the military-industrial complex it sounds like on a global level there are real consequences to allowing this Overland route as you described and con the way I view it that this was more about Germany in Russia than it was Ukraine in Russia absolutely and yeah so I'm I'm very glad that you're you're actually look at it this way the nordstream pipeline the the the the sabotage of the nordstream pipeline a lot of people will look at that situation and they'll say the nordstream pipeline sabotage let's say it's by NATO or NATO members let's say it's the US that that's a reaction to Russia's special military operation or go invasion of Ukraine but reverse that logic look at it the other way that the war in Ukraine and baiting Russia into that situation arming Ukraine to Nato standard all those years build building up a Tet Offensive that was about to take place right before Russia intervened that is a reaction to the construction of the nordstream pipeline right which Donald Trump tried very hard to convince the Germans don't do this you're putting us in a very you know well he's saying you're going to be held hostage by the Russians of course that was just rhetoric the opposite is true right they're being held hostage by the United States literally and the US is um arguably uh involved in uh a major attack on a European infrastructure energy infrastructure unprecedented in history but that's the sort of dire position that we are at in the world right now and geopolitically and this is why a lot of people are really frightened by how things have escalated as a result of the situation you know uh the they tried to disrupt Russian gas supplies into Europe through Ukraine um and arguably this was also part of the instability there post maidon as well and Russia just basically did a deal with Germany to bypass that problem over land right by nordstream and it was a great thing for the German economy they could guarantee and lock in gas prices good for their industry good for BASF Volkswagen seens these companies and good for the climate even or better than oil because it's 50% cleaner right and that was the entire point that was the entire exactly most of the point G natural gas ticked those boxes for the green exact compliance so good point but those Industries have fled Germany now they've gone to China they've gone to the United States and they're never coming back so where what what is the future of Europe uh as a result they're going to become more dependent on the United States on us uh Financial bailouts on the IMF maybe one day who knows but they will not let them trade and do business with Russia yes I'm very glad to hear that I'm not one of the only people and there maybe this is said by others I just I haven't seen it I haven't come across it but this is something I've been thinking about so and hearing you articulate it much better than I could have I think is uh kind of exciting for me because I've been thinking about this especially in in the context of like the multi-polar transition right um if if the US understands that the world is changing and China's Rising then from their perspective it's better to lock in their customers so to speak right their state the the the states that they view as satellite States or or customers right uh it's better to lock that in and so moving in moving forward they made sure no the Germans are with us the Russians you don't cross this territory Poland belongs to us Germany belongs to us Western Europe belongs to us they will take Natural g liquid liquefied natural gas from us even though it's more expensive even though they have to invest in these new terminals and they have to pay these exorbitant shipping costs they will get it from us Qatar also benefited a lot because now they've struck a deal with Germany I think for the next 20 years but for the most part it's us companies that are benefiting and so they've locked in they've said moving forward if we are going into a multi-polar world Western Europe the more sophisticated and developed economies they're with us not with you and not with China as well it's like a protection racket it's like you know uh NATO is functioning like a protection racket we're going to decide you don't buy from him buy from us right and we'll protect you have you ever seen the suppr it's basically scale that up geopolitically and that's what you've got think think of NATO as the glove in which the United States can insert its hand into European Affairs be they as I said uh military economic and political and not only that that EU member states cannot have independent foreign policies anymore this is a big change they used to have independent used to be descent Within Europe France is a good example with the Iraq War and so forth and was out of NATO for years came back in uh just in time for Libya so this is interesting so think of it like that in in fact the first Secretary General of NATO Lord Hastings Isme said the purpose of NATO is to keep uh the Russians out the Germans down and the Americans in and he said that in what was it 19 probably 1954 or something like that so so they recognize German Germany's capabilities as far back well obviously because you know what they did in World War II but even afterwards they saw still the potential for them to rise as an economic absolutely and that's why the US occupied Germany militarily The Troop numbers that the US used to have in Germany way way more than what they have today uh in you know stutgart and Ramin bases and the largest NSA list one of the largest NSA listing stations in Germany um as well but to to basically that was the deal Germany could not have a National military and in exchange for this the US opened up us markets for German businesses and allowed them to rebuild and build up their economy by giving access to the consumer Baby Boom Market in America in the 1950s and 60s the same with Japan can't have a National military but and we'll occupy you militarily which we still do in okanawa and other bases in Japan and South Korea but will give Japan access to us markets and also Japan will also buy us uh debt as well and hold that one of the largest holders of us debts is Japan so this helps to shore up the US Reserve Global Reserve currency of the US dollar so all of these dollar syns around the world post World War II and um till till today helped to sustain the US dollar as a world Reserve currency they all contribute and there's US Dollars All Around the World in bank accounts of countries but um but anyway that's that was the deal so what happens when Germany wants to do its own foreign policy or Japan wants to be allies with China then you have problems then you start seeing tensions with Taiwan ramping up then you start to see this thing in Ukraine ramping up um so people at the ran Corporation Washington made no bones about they like to see Russia divided into 10 different right small states and and this has always been this is what the Middle East effectively is it's u a mapmaking exercise uh post World War I that bakes in and post British Empire in Asia for instance East Pakistan West Pakistan India it bakes in conflict in perpetuity uh because of the map makers drawing their borders after the Empire recedes and so this this is a good part of the instability that we have Israel is like the ultimate example of the establishment of the state of Israel like Eternal conflict in the region right it's at war with all of its neighbors practically uh and it's holding a gun to their head with nuclear weapons and the region just has to accept it and it's been an unmitigated disaster since 1948 let's be honest including the Iraq War which I will lump into that analysis um it's not been good for the region and but show me a a colonial settler state that ended well it's hard hard to find them and uh so anyway getting off topic there but yeah uh so coming back to Russia Ukraine so it sounds like the Russia Ukraine war actually is in the US interests and I think in a strange way though both the both the Russians and the Americans are going to benefit from this war that the Russians needed to remind the world of their strength they needed to make these internal changes to to their military they have innovated their troops are now battle hardened and if we are moving into God forbid a scenario in which you know these powerful states are sending their econom has been reconfigured their econom has been reconfigured they're they're uh beginning this dollarization process um but they weren't able to infuse uh they weren't able to pump the German economy the German machine with resources but they are now going to pump the Chinese machine with resources so the US either way the Russians are pairing with somebody was either Germany and it would have been in Russia's interest I think to be able to work with everyone but now they're completely cut off from Western Europe so they don't benefit as much but I do think those resources that would have went to Germany are now going to go to China and China is I think they have much more industrial capabilities than than Germany and in a similar way they have navigable rivers in the way that Germany does and that makes their Logistics very very efficient and so China's going to benefit a lot and if you think about the world Island Russia and China together in an alliance already covers maybe what 40% of the entire world Island if not more so they're almost there and if they uh can continue to work together and if the alliance continues and it's fruitful then you really could see George mackinder's World Island Theory howford howford howford sorry isn't it George howford mender I'm not sure sure but I know him as hred mender Alfred mender apologies uh hred mender his theory about the world Island could come to fruition but it's just it's funny how uh and I'd like to get your opinion on that but it's last thing I'll say is it's funny how mackinder's Theory which is quite old at this point and it's just a theory it's not really ever been proven it's been tested but it's never been proven uh it's funny how that theory is still relevant in the minds of of these uh strategists you