Dr. Jordan Peterson interviews Elon Musk(Donald Trump, SpaceX, Wokeness, Mars)

Elon on Jordan Peterson on The Daily Wire, talking about Trump, vaccines and prison time for those involved. AI, lawfare, child mutilation disguised as gender affirming care, the media and its lies, Mars and many other topics. This is a very, very good interview. He also talks about his 12 children. Some people say Black Hat, some people say White Hat.. After listening to this, I think he has values very similar to most Patriots..

Transcript - Times not accurate...

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[Music] modern people often ask themselves why
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do I have to study history well you're a historical
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being you need to know who you are and where you came from and why you think the things you
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think that's why you have to place yourself in the proper tradition
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I'm taking four of my esteemed colleagues and you across the world oh
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wow this is amazing to ReDiscover the ways our ancient ancestors developed the ideas that shaped modern society it was
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a monument to Civic greatness to visit the places where history was made that
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is ash from the actual fires when the Babylonians burn Jerusalem from
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2500 years ago to walk the same roads We are following the path of the cruci
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and experience the same [Music]
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Wonder we are on the sight of a
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miracle what kind of resources can human beings bring to a mysterious but knowable
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Universe science art politics all that makes life wonderful
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[Music] and something new about the world is
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revealed [Music]
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yeah the
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he
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yeah yeah
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so the first thing I'd like to say is that it's ridiculously exciting to be here uh
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you're most welcome to be here this is quite the amazing place and I've been
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preparing to talk to you for a long time so I'm really looking forward to it you
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said something that caught me right away when we were discussing um various
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issues just before we started you said you were up till 4 in the morning yeah actually a little little more like 5: in
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the morning but we got uh the um the xcii data center uh or supercomputer
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Center uh training um from uh beginning installation to Startup training in 19
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days which is the fastest that anyone has ever uh gotten a supercomputer uh to train um and is that in that new
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building off to the side that's in Memphis actually it's in Memphis Yeah so so that's where you were yeah I see
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Memphis the capital of ancient Egypt right right right right right right yeah yeah you're bringing what perhaps that's
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where our new God will come from yeah no kidding no kidding yeah I wish that was
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funny yeah okay so I want to talk to you about a line that was funny yeah yeah I
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look um I mean there there are a few things we're aiming for with with grock the xai um you know but it's the name of
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the the the AI from XI is called Gro and familiar with I'm familiar I want to ask
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you about that too well Gro just means to deeply understand something yeah but it's got that weird background that
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Stranger in a Strange Land right Robert heinlin that was a favorite book of mine how old are you 53 yeah okay so we're
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roughly from the same era I read Highland a lot when I was a kid the first two-thirds of Stranger in a Strange Land are great gets kind of
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weird in the final third yeah so why did you pick why did you pick grock well I think well because of the meaning of the
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word word yeah um to Gro something is to understand it at a very deep level yeah um to really fundamentally understand
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something and that's what we're aiming for with our AI the the the state of
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goal of um xci is to understand the universe yeah so to really just
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understand the nature of the universe like and even what questions to ask about the universe yeah um so that's
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that's our goal I think it's a good goal okay so let me ask you some specific questions about that so I played a lot
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around a lot with large language models I have some people on my team who built one actually we built one out of my
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writing that I've been using to help me with my new book so if I come across biblical passages that I can't
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understand I can use that system to give me a first pass approximation and it works quite nicely I've used Gro quite a
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lot too and chat GPT and I use them as research assistance and there chat GPT
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lies a lot so you have to keep an eye on well so I've been thinking about this alignment problem and so problem a big
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deal I got an idea to run by you and you tell me what you think about this well so there's a golden thread of
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conversation that constitutes the basis for hum's Education let's say that's run across centuries and in principle those
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would that concentrates on ideas that have been winnowed probably through a quasi
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evolutionary process across L large spans of time to get documents out of that like the well like the King James
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Bible for example and they're zeroing in on core conceptual structures that we don't even
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necessarily explicitly understand yeah it seems to me that when we take young people and we give them a genuine
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Humanities education we solve the alignment problem for them now so the
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question or make it worse well well you do that if it's prop if it's propagandistic you can make it much
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worse is these days yeah that's that's pretty much the that's exact well that's
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also exactly what happens and inevitably when that unbroken tradition is not
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transmitted and so this strikes to something that's very essential which is well what's the difference let's say or
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is there a difference between the Western Canon let's say and the latest woke nonsense now I've used Gro a lot
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and it's not as woke as chat GPT but it's still woke like it still deviates in so so how are you can you address
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that by it's just a language model at the moment let's say if if it also understood images if it also understood
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Behavior it does it actually does does understand images at this point okay and are those are is the language model and
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the image understanding are they stacked on top of each other because I think that's partly how we triangulate
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psychologically right we have an imagination and we have a verbal module but those things have to work in sync
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and we also have it certainly is intended to work in sync um it's you know it it is intended to be what's
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called a multimodal model which means understanding text images and video uh
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and audio okay if it understands video will it start to understand Behavior
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yeah all this data that you've collected with your cars so I've been wondering I know Tesla is a car company but when I
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look at what you do yeah well exactly yeah well maybe more like those aren't
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cars those are autonomous robots yeah they're robots on four wheels autonomous robots and four wheels yeah they just
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look like a car right they're disguised as a car yeah yeah okay okay so what advantage do
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you have in training grock given that you have all this real world data that you've gathered from
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your automobiles um we haven't yet um applied real world video from Tesla to
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grock yet so I I I do want emphasize XI is a fairly new company it's just a little over a year old um so we really
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need we have a lot of catching up to do to companies relative to companies that have been around for 5 or 10 or 20 years
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uh we're cashing up fast I think the the velocity of improvement of xai is faster
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than uh any other company out there um we just completed the um we just we were
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just able to install and bring online um a a massive new training center that we
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like as mentioned we're building in in Memphis um and it's uh from beginning Hardware installation to it beginning
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training was only 19 days and that's the fastest by far that anyone's uh been able to do that so we're moving we're
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moving quickly but we're still catching up and so if you use catching up to who well catching up to um say gini uh chbt
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Claude uh and the others um so and how
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do you feel that Gro we're catching up fast how do you feel that grock performs say in relationship to CH GPT now well
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um so the the the gro version that's been released is still based on grock one version one training um yeah we've
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made several improvements so it's sort of called grock 1.5 uh but the foundation model of of Gro is still uh
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an order of magnitude uh weaker than uh chbt um oh yes so it's it's doing it's
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doing quite well given that order of magnitude um difference and this new system how powerful is it compared let's
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say to CH GPT well I should so uh grock 2 actually finished training um now
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grock 2 was training um with uh called roughly 15,000 gpus um and they're h100
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so grock 2 finished training uh about a month ago we're doing what's called
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fine-tuning um fixing bugs and whatnot so we'll release grock 2 which will be
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um should be on par with H or close to a a GPT 4 and that that's uh hopefully we
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release that next month um then what we're doing in the Memphis data center
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is we're actually training grock 3 so that'll probably finish training in
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about 3 or 4 months and then there'll be some fine tuning and Bug fixing whatnot and we're hoping to release grock 3 by
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December um and gr 3 should be the most powerful AI uh in the world at that point so my my sense with Chad GPT I
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I've worked with lots of undergraduates and graduate students so my my sense with chat GPT is if you can corner it
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into behaving properly that you kind of have something approximating a team of I
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would say master's degree level intelligence and something like that what do you envision for this new well
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let's say the new gro 3 and then you talked about delving deeper into the
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structure of of the universe let's say to answer fundamental questions like and you are a remarkably forward-looking
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person so what do you what the hell do you think you're building with the these AI systems like what is this well I
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think really what uh what all the AI companies are aiming to build is um
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digital digital super intelligence um so you know an intelligence that's far
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smarter than any any human yeah um and then ultimately an intelligence that is
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far smarter than all humans combined uh that's that's now now one can say like
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is this a wise thing to do isn't this isn't this dangerous well unfortunately
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whether we think that or not it it is being done um so yeah the really you
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know from standpoint of my from my standpoint from the XI team standpoint
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we are really we have the choice of being a spectator or a
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participant that's life man yeah be a spectator or or a participant and um I
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think if we're participant we've got a better chance hopefully of steering uh AI in a direction that is beneficial to
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humanity so why do you why okay so why do you trust yourself on that front just out of I mean that's an important
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question right I don't trust myself entirely good well that's yes fair enough okay
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but you're in an ethical conundrum right ethical conundrum right cuz you said well this is happening now the excuse
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that something is happening is not irrational for participating in it but then your next take is well you know we
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have the chance to do this properly let's say Asos okay let pull it if I
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mean I think we we the from a moral standpoint we really just need to think that maybe we've got a chance of it
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being um better uh to some degree than what others are doing and we you know
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we'll we'll strive to avoid some of the pitfalls or directions that the others
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are are going in um because the others I from what I've seen do not strive for truth um what do they strive
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for uh they strive for well they they strive to give an answer but they they they are um I think trained to be
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politically correct um and the woke mind virus is woven in throughout them yeah
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I'm sure you've seen that yeah definitely definitely definitely you know my students used to ask me when I
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CU I've been teaching what I've been teaching for about 40 years and one of the questions they used to ask me is how
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I knew that what I was teaching wasn't just another ideology right because the postmodern take is well all it is is a
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plethora of power games and so there's no rank ordering approaches to the truth in terms of their ethical suitability
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but that's not the game that you're playing and and obviously would not agree with with with that philosophy why
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not the sort of moral relativism what's convinced you that that's not that's not a useful way of approaching
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things well I I think you can look at a given belief system and critique it as
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being uh likely to uh en enhance or decrease uh Enlightenment um will any
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given belief system uh improve our understanding of the universe will we learn more things will we achieve a
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deeper understanding of physics and um right so that's grounded at least in part in a scientific framework from the
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sounds of it that I mean I think there are facts about the world right things that are uh just say let's say extremely
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likely to be true versus less likely to be true yeah um I think if one thinks in
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terms of probabilities about any given sort of acatic statement then that that's the right way to think about it
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um now some things are you know 99.99% to be true you you can run experiments
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you can confirm them um and others uh are perhaps have a low probability of
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Truth uh 1% likely to be true or you know just using extremes here but but any given um statement has uh I think
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should be thought of as having a unless it's a toogy uh should be thought of as having a probability of being true or
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untrue um uh or a probability of being relevant to an argument or not relevant
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to an argument we just talking about the fun the basics of of of cogency here yeah yeah well okay so let me let me put
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a Twist on that too so one of the things that really struck me about your public pronouncements in recent years was your
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insistence that we're in a natal crisis and that that's actually a problem because that's fact true well well it
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depends whether you think that pop the planet would be better off if it was depopulated that's Paul line yeah yeah
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Paul erck is a genocidal Maniac as far as I'm concerned and I he's a terrible human being yes and he's never admitted
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that he was wrong and he was unbelievably wrong he made a famous bet you know the bet I hate po like I going
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be clear about that I think he's terrible and and his books have done great damage to humanity so what okay
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fine I talked to a philosopher a while back who was an anti-natalist trying to get my finger on that there was a recent
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research article published on this too antinatalists are much more likely to show dark tetrad traits mellan
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Psychopathic narcissistic and sadistic because those first three weren't enough
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right and so those things are tightly aligned especially the best predictor was psychopathy for being an
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anti-natalist sure right right well in the psychopath are very very very self-centered right it's they're like
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overgrown 2-year-olds overgrown aggressive 2-year-olds so that's not good how did you start to understand
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that the one of the fundamental ethical problems is different than a scientific problem one of the fundamental ethical
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problems that's plaguing the West is this catastrophically low birth rate and you know when you start making public
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pring the numbers I mean I noticed this 20 plus years ago um that the the trend
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in growth rates for really all countries uh past certain level of Economic Development uh was trending to well
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below replacement uh if not already below replacement and if you extrapolate the curve which one always has to be
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cautious about extrapolating any demographic curve but if you if just so I always preface by saying if these
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Trends continue uh um most countries will will dwindle into
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insignificance uh they might completely die out so I've been thinking about about that in relationship to Sacred
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images okay okay well the sacred IM image of masculinity in the west is a crucifixion but a man who's crucified
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but the sacred image of a woman isn't a woman the sacred image of a woman is a woman and an infant right it's a diad
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and not a monad sure right right right and in in in the Christian view those
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those two images you know they VI for Supremacy right I mean obviously Christ is the superordinate image but M Mary is
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the mother of God is what the the female equivalent and so one of the things I've
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been playing with at an axiomatic level is the notion that unless the feminine is conceptualized as the combination of
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female and infant then the culture has lost its attachment to the traditional sacred images and is probably on its way
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out yeah um I think there is there's an argument
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that that um when a culture loses its uh
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religion that it starts to become anti-natalist um and decline uh in numbers and and and uh you
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know potentially disappear so I I've got a hypothesis about that you tell me what you think about this so I've been
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working this out in my next book which is coming out in November so it's an analysis of biblical stories and in a
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way it's an attempt to solve the alignment alignment problem okay okay so imagine this imagine that there's a a
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Unity of moral purpose yeah that that that is conceptualized in the traditional writings as what should be
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put in the highest place so it's God and in in the final analysis it's ineffable
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but it is a fundamental uni unification monotheism okay now here's a hypothesis
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when that collapses two things arise to replace it okay one is the striving for power and the other is the untrammeled
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what would you call it the untrammeled Dominion of Hedonism and Es especially on the sexual gratification side so it's
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like if there's no ultimate unity that's future and Community oriented that's
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predicated on sacrifice you get a dissolution immediately into the next two contenders for Domination and one is
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it's about me buddy and get the hell out of the way and aligned with that is not only is it about me it's about me uh
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what would you say subjugated to my most base whims because why would I want Power except to do exactly what the hell
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I want whenever I want to and so part of the problem with the idea of people like
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Dawkins so Dawkins and the atheists pres I've had many conversations with Dawkins over the years you have eh oh yeah oh
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we're going to do a podcast together which I'm very looking forward to yeah but I'm I'm very curious about this
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issue because his idea and it's kind of an enlightenment idea is that we dispensed with the idiot Superstition of
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the past then everyone would become you know bonian rationalists and that seem
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yeah unfortunately not no well what seems to me to happen much more likely is that power and Hedonism rise to take
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the place of what was holy so to speak you know and n weren't about that when he proclaimed the death of God to begin
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with he thought nihilism would also enter the realm right nihilism power and Hedonism as the as the triumvirate of
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replacement gods and so I've been trying to puzzle out in this new book the way
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the biblical Corpus is conceptualizing what's properly placed in the highest place and it does that's part of the
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reason I was asking you about the natalist issue because you figured out 20 years ago that's a long time before
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anybody been talking about longer yeah yeah but that and then you also did publicly Proclaim it at a time when the
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insistence the moral insistence was all on the side of you know Jane Good's pronouncements that if we don't reduce
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the population of the planet dramatically that the nature goddess is going to be upset which is also a very
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very old idea not a very good one so so I'm very curious about your intuition
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there like that's a long time ago and so how did you coton on to the fact that that antagonistic attitude towards birth
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that's embedded in our culture now was something that should be called out and that was
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pathological well I I mean I should perhaps go back to what is the foundation of My Philosophy um because
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uh that that I think helps build up you know to explain my action
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uh so they when I was um I don't know about 11 or 12 years old I um had
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somewhat of an existential crisis because it I there just doesn't didn't seem to be any meaning in in in the
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world like no meaning to life and so I actually read uh try to read all the
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religious texts at that age yes okay so I was aeration reader as a
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kid so I you know obviously read the Bible um I
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read the Quran uh the Torah you know the the
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various uh but but on the the Hindu side just just trying to understand all these
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things um and um obviously as a 12-year-old you're not really going to understand these things super well but
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I've just well you understood it well enough to have an existential crisis when you were 11 or 12 trying does
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anyone have an answer that that makes sense and then I started getting into uh
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the philosophy books um and I read uh quite a bit of schopenhauer N and uh
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which is quite depressing to read as as a kid might say that less depressing as as
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an adult but um and um and and and none of them really seem
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to have to me answers that res at at least to me um and um so but then I read
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uh Douglas Adams hitch as Guide to the Galaxy which is really a book on philosophy disguises humor and what dlas
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Adam the point that Adams tries to make there is that um we don't actually know all the answers obviously yeah in fact
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we don't even know what the right questions do you ask um that's where he has you know this in in if if you read
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the book The you know Earth it is actually a giant computer Compu to understand the answer to the like the
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question what is the meaning of life yeah um and comes up with the answer 42
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yeah um and feel like what does it what does that mean it says oh you you actually you don't understand the the
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real the thing that's going to take a computer far more powerful than Earth uh is to understand what question to ask
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that's simply the wrong question so was that the key realization that that the question that was that was a fundamental
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Turning Point yeah yeah cuz that's it so that's very interesting because one of the things that you see constantly
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portrayed in Redemptive hero myths across the world is that the adventure is the thing and that the search is the
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thing rather than there being a final answer as absurd as 42 might be right
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there's no there's no that the conclusive answer is something like deep engagement in the process so so I'll
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give you an example of that so in The Sermon on the Mount the sermon on the mount's a very detailed set of
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instructions so there's three parts to it the first is aim at the highest thing that you can possibly conceive of and
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keep modifying that so your aim gets better okay so that's number one number two is make the presumption that other
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people have the same intrinsic value as you do uh well we have to be careful about that one okay okay well let's
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discuss that but but it's a what would you say it's it's it's a it's a recognition of the of the Universalist
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value of everyone who's made in the image of God it's something like that but the third thing is once you do those
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two things you can concentrate on the moment see and that seems to be even technically you can think about this
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neuropsychologically so if you're looking for meaning meaning is a form of incentive reward and incentive reward is
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dopaminergically mediated and incentive reward occurs in relationship to advancement towards a goal which is a
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form of entropy minimization as it turns out according to Carl friston who knows this sort of thing entropy is the
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ultimate bus battle yeah right right right right while negative emotion signifies the emergence of entropy and
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positive emotion on the dop energic side signals its reduction but there's something that's more complex there
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because the higher the goal that you're trying to attain the more intrinsic value each step towards
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it comprises and that's neuropsychologically accurate and so part of the wisdom of The Sermon on the
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Mount is that if you posit the highest imaginable goal
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then any step towards it is that captures your attention is also
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deep meaningful and so that's an answer to what the meaning is of process rather than say something like 42 and you said
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it seems to me that you were intimating that your Discovery through Adams that the question was the thing was key to
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the resolution of your existential crisis that's correct okay so that's part of the reason that you're motivated
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to say build grock 3 and look in look deeper to understand yeah yeah yeah the
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universe okay so once how old were you when you figured that when you figured out that the question 13 or something
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what did that do to you what did that do to you well I was I was a lot happier after that um because now it's like okay
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well I'm just going to accept that we are ignorant of of a great many things yeah and we wish to be less ignorant um
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and anything we can do uh that will improve our understanding of the universe and make us less ignorant and
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have a deeper understanding of the the universe and even more questions to answer to to ask about the answer that
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is Universe which is I think Adam's a central point um is good um and so and
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that was good enough to resolve that crisis it was it was for me at least um and and so like is this a religion I
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don't know maybe it is but I think it's a good one I'd call the religion of curiosity yeah well the
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the the ancient god of the Mesopotamians his name was Marduk and he was the best
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defense against ensuing chaos and state corruption okay so that's how he was
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conceptualized okay aric had eyes all the way around his head okay cuz he paid attention right right and he spoke magic
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words okay right and he was literally for the Mesopotamians he was the agent that revitalized the tyrannical State
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and overcame evil and also the force that dispensed with chaos and built
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something magnificent and Cosmic out of it right so yeah yeah sounds like a
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Force for good yeah yeah yeah while in the Mesopotamian Emperor so his job was
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to embody that Spirit on Earth and they used to take him out of the city on New Year's Eve strip him of his kingly
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clothing humiliate him they slapped him the priests and then they'd ask him to
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confess all the ways that he hadn't been a good Marduk attentive and speaking
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properly in the previous year and that's how they renewed The Cosmos every year and that's our New Year celebration is a
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derivation of that out with the old and in with the new and the Egyptians they
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worshiped the ey right you've seen that famous eye they all seeing eye of Horus they're all seeing eye of Horus that's
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the antidote to the eye of saon by the way right cuz you get if you don't use
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that Vision if each citizen doesn't use that Vision it's replaced by the totalitarian allseeing eye right right
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so that's a hell of a thing to know okay so that okay so that's cool so I wondered I I see I see cuz I wondered
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what's motivated you cuz you push in so many directions simultaneously you have to be really highly motivated to do that
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and so you figured out that that the question in a sense was the answer yeah
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yeah the question or or you know I said another way that uh seeking greater
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Enlightenment um and a better understanding of the universe and what questions to ask about it um is
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something that we can continue to uh do as a civilization for a very long time
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yeah yeah likely forever right EX depending on how powerful grock turns
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out to be yeah so that's uh so then I thought okay I'll work on um things that
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uh improve our understanding of the Universe um I know now they say like at a base level well um this is why I I
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actually think we want a population increase uh because uh population
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increase means that there are more people um that that we've expanded uh
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scale brains man yeah we've expanded the scale of Consciousness um to the gree
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there are different cultures we've expanded the scope of Consciousness so that there's um okay so I read something
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here I talked to this gentleman who done a biography of Marx and he went and looked at Marx's
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poetry and drama that he wrote before he wrote The Communist Manifesto and he found out something very
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interesting he found out that Marx's favorite quote from girtha was a a
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statement by mephistophiles it's a very specific statement and it's a very key
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statement mephistophiles motivation so Lucifer's motivation is predicated on this
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argument said Consciousness is nothing but consciousness of pain and misery
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life is short and brutal and pointless therefore it would be better if Consciousness itself was eradicated
48:22
sounds like Hobs yeah well so so I had I I named my I had a little York teria who
48:28
was um uh n nasty brutish and short so I named him Hobs perfect perfect well I
48:35
think it's I think it's even deeper than Hobbs because Hobbs seem to understand that life without social order would
48:42
degenerate into that but the mephistophelian Credence is Credo is that Consciousness itself is an evil
48:49
that should be eradicated because it produces suffering that was Marx's favorite it is the very definition of
48:56
crazy the of the adversarial Spirit now your
49:02
hypothesis your axi let's say is that that's wrong and that Consciousness should be so then we say so why should
49:09
Consciousness be expanded if it's nothing but consciousness of suffering and your answer obviously false okay
49:16
what not so obvious lots of people suffer like lots of people are suicidal and nihilistic and so and you had that
49:22
crisis of con of of Faith let's say when you were 11 or 12 an existential crisis
49:28
but you resolved it meaning of life crisis right right so no I I think it's
49:33
just obviously false that people are um well while there are people who are very sad there are people also who are very
49:38
happy and we go through sad and happy moments every human being does um so it's it's it's not it's it's an absurd
49:46
and and and and obviously false statement that life is merely suffering yes that's just I mean that is just a
49:54
ridiculously false statement so so one of the things I've tried to do is to understand so like there are a
50:03
limited number of things that are undeniably real and pain is one of them yes okay like my back Hut's a little yes
50:10
so that's cuz you were up till 5: in the morning no I just have some injuries whatever from
50:16
wrestling um it's like from I think some childhood inj injuries that um although
50:23
the final thing that that that caused some some some back and shoulder injuries was
50:29
um me foolishly fighting the world champion Su wrestler right and charging
50:34
Adam at full speed to knock him over which I did succeed in doing but uh but you paid a price for it a very very high
50:41
price carnivore di will fix that the what sorry the carnivore diet will fix that I look I'm all I I like meat I'm
50:49
Pro meat I don't think carnivore D is going to fix this particular issue I think probably my wife had an injury of 40 years and it it resolved in two years
50:57
carniv diet if you just eat steak or something yeah I mean I all beef sure sure sure I I'm I'm a pro I like meat um
51:06
but I I think this is a I I think I'll probably need an operation or something but anyway I tried the carnivore first
51:14
anyways that did happen to her she couldn't lift her left arm above here it took 40 years and in two years it resolv
51:21
okay yeah so that was something to see it also rejuvenated her physically in a variety of different ways were quite
51:27
miraculous to watch and that hasn't stopped so that's weird thing and I would have never believed it if I hadn't
51:33
seen this because it's so Preposterous sure anyways I'm not going to pelze about carnivore diets so okay okay so
51:41
that now let's go back to AI if you don't mind so you were involved in the project that Sam Alman runs now open AI
51:49
I was um one of the principal co-founders of in fact I named it yeah so so what the hell happened was my idea
51:55
what happened well I I start it off um
52:00
so um the origins of opening eye are uh that I was very close with with Larry
52:07
Page who's one of my best friends and um in fact I would stay at his house because I I'd spent half the week in the
52:14
Bay Area running Tesla and half in uh La running SpaceX and I and for the longest time I
52:21
never even had a house in the Bay Area I would just stay at friends friends places if they had a spare room i' stay
52:27
there if they didn't had sleep on the couch and um and I find it actually to be a I think it's very funny that you
52:33
stayed on the couch I think that's very funny yeah yeah I'm you know CCH that
52:39
often but but it was uh but I I I I didn't have a house for more than a decade so I would just uh
52:45
stay at rotate through friends places which is a great way to catch up with friends yeah right right and
52:52
um and so I I would have these conversations with ar page long into the night about AI safety and I just grew
52:59
increasingly concerned that Dar was not sufficiently concerned about AI safety um and at one point he did call
53:08
me a speciest um yes you are one yes mhm yes it's I guess correctly
53:15
labeled um yes and uh ad there were other people around when he did that and
53:21
nor does he attempt to deny it uh that I'm a specious in favor of humans in as
53:27
compared to lice for example well no more like relative to digital intelligence oh yeah that's even worse
53:34
his view is that digital intelligence should be you know
53:40
that I mean Larry's view is is um so I'm not
53:46
misspeaking is that ultimately we will all upload our minds to the computer and
53:51
everyone will just be robots yeah and for for a while see
53:57
there's not much difference between that and the death of humanity well yeah I think that's um cuz
54:03
whatever we'd be then it wouldn't be what we are now right and that you know and if the we we pay a price for what we
54:09
are now and that's the the price of our intrinsic limitations and that is a difficult bitter let's say pill to
54:15
swallow but I also think so I've thought recently you know how do you know that
54:21
something's real so death makes things real death makes things real sure and so if you if you eradicate death it seems
54:28
to me that in some fundamental level you also eradicate reality itself so and I don't like I haven't
54:35
figured out the connection an important like death death Death does play an
54:40
important role um because I think you really could evolve humans to live much longer or
54:46
most creatures live much longer but there's over time uh Evolution as a do
54:53
believe in evolution um has um found that there it's better for
55:00
organisms to have a a finite life um and that that death death brings renewal
55:07
essentially um and I think we do need to to be cautious about trying to solve longevity in in a in in sort of a love
55:14
forever type sense because I think our our society our culture would aify um
55:20
and the people in power would would always remain in power um well you wouldn't you know if you had let's say
55:27
you apprehended a 10,000 year span of Consciousness with no sleep yeah I don't
55:33
know what the hell you'd be if that was who you were but you wouldn't be human sure and then we also don't understand
55:40
that see part of the problem I think with the perspective that the technologists are taking with regards to
55:45
human existence is that there's a reductionism there that's something it's
55:51
it's something like there's no difference between us and the gist of our
55:57
linguistic Network something like that like whatever we are as conscious beings is a hell of a lot deeper than the
56:04
patterns of thought that make up our cortical existence Consciousness is way deeper than cortical existence and I
56:10
like I yeah maybe um I I do think you have to ask this
56:16
sort of this gradient question of um where along where um does Consciousness
56:24
arise now OB SE a sort of traditional uh Christian uh Faith you would say that
56:31
well there's a soul that inhabits the body and that's the Consciousness perhaps um but uh you know is a is a we
56:39
all started as as a single cell so is that single cell conscious I mean it
56:44
doesn't look very it's you can't talk to it it's just a cell um it differentiates very strangely first yeah it's it's it
56:53
has that teeology built into it that's very difficult to understand understand but conscious it seems not to be not at
56:59
that it seem to be conscious um so so where um as as it the it divides into
57:07
many more cells eventually reaching to uh an you know an adult human has 30 to
57:12
40 trillion cells um so where where where does is where does Consciousness
57:19
arrive does it grow slowly is there a step change um and uh you know I tend to
57:27
generally believe in physics um and you seem to have done pretty well with that
57:32
belief by the way yes well I I have a saying that uh physics is the law and
57:37
everything else is a recommendation mhm uh because people can break um and do
57:43
break uh man-made laws but they have yet to see someone break laws of physics mhm
57:50
so uh you know and so if you if you have uh beliefs that are incompatible with a
57:58
rocket getting to orbit the rocket will not get to orbit right right right right a pragmatic phys physics is a h judge
58:05
yes definitely definitely do you think these llms like do you think that any of
58:10
the Machinery that you've interacted with is showing anything signs of anything that might be equated to
58:17
Consciousness I mean the llms are remarkable right and they certainly pass the teing test as far as I'm concerned
58:23
pass the teing test so from from a testing standpoint I think we will if if
58:29
we're not there already we soon will be where you would not be able to tell that you're yeah interacting with a computer
58:37
or that's coming right away man yes in fact probably sort of here unless you're
58:42
really sneaky and you ask like harsh questions and Corner the damn things we're probably already there yeah long
58:48
as you you know don't know if if you know some of the tricks like how many RS are there in renderer
58:54
um bizar can't figure that one out oh I didn't know that that was one of its
58:59
yeah so it has these weird Luna in its knowledge right well it's it's it divides everything into tokens and those
59:06
tokens are more than one letter and so it it it actually weirdly it's it's my
59:11
offic with respect to single letters right I see so it's got a resolution problem yeah yeah um now you can get
59:19
around with this with like like weird tricks like if you ask ask it to write a computer program to count the number of
59:24
letters in a word it can create that computer program run it and then and
59:29
then get the number of letters correct right right anyway but so back
59:36
to conscious the question of Consciousness I always think like where along the lines like is is everything
59:41
conscious or is nothing conscious potentially um and I I think you want to
59:46
just when you're trying to understand something um consider the various possible answers and think that there's
59:54
a probability associated with each one of these answers as opposed to a certainty um now if physics is correct
1:00:02
Universe started off um with consisting almost entirely of of hydrogen a little
1:00:07
bit of helium and uh some lithium and the that coales into stars that exploded
1:00:15
um when it coales in Stars you had the formation of heavier elements and and
1:00:20
then uh those Stars got got scattered and and then reformed uh and made new
1:00:26
stars um and uh so we eventually got
1:00:33
uh elements that are higher in the periodic table besides the the very basic ones um the physics equivalent of
1:00:40
Jacob's Ladder I think yeah so this is this is what physics predicts this
1:00:46
strange spiral upward towards some somewhat towards
1:00:51
Consciousness well well yeah so um but the point is that the Universe at
1:00:58
least according to physics started out essentially as hydrogen and given enough
1:01:04
time you had more um you know complex uh
1:01:10
or he heavy elements and more complex molecules and and then 13.8 billion
1:01:16
years later at least on this planet we have what we call Consciousness in the form you know yeah but but but that
1:01:22
means Consciousness had to arise it's imp licit at least from hydrogen yeah
1:01:29
well see so if you just leave hydrogen out in
1:01:34
the sun long enough start talking this is I think what you're I I I've seen your comments on this before I think
1:01:41
you're pointing to the same sort of thing that my friend Jonathan Paso has been trying to elucidate which is that
1:01:47
there's a there's an implicit structure of possibility he Associates this with the concept of Heaven like there's an
1:01:53
implicit structure of possibility that material forms are trying to flesh out and so in some sense the possibility of
1:02:00
Consciousness is inherent in the hydrogen atoms right obviously because it emerged yeah so so it's it's it's
1:02:08
it's a tautology in some ways but maybe everything's conscious in some way maybe maybe it's just degrees of Consciousness
1:02:14
or concentrations of Consciousness yeah well I wonder if that's associated with the notion the
1:02:20
Christian notion that the word is primary know cuz in in in mythological representations you have three
1:02:26
fundamental elements you have something like order which you could think about as Society but it's an it's the it's the
1:02:34
a prior axiomatic interpretive structure you have that then you have chaotic
1:02:39
potential that's the toou vaboh that exists at the beginning of time and so the way God is represented in the story
1:02:46
of Genesis is that so God is the a prior
1:02:52
interpretive process that gives rise to order as a consequence of manipulating
1:02:57
potential and the intermediary factor is the word that's the Christian conception
1:03:03
and the word is something like it's something like well language but it's also something like the sacrificial
1:03:09
gesture that's that's necessary for learning to take place so you could imagine this when you learn something
1:03:16
it's not only that you add to a storehouse that you have it's that something that you already know has to
1:03:22
undergo a death and a transformation you know most real learning is painful you
1:03:28
think uh yeah I mean well well well the
1:03:33
deeper the Axiom that's shifting when you learn the more chaos is associated with it that can be exciting but it can
1:03:39
also be destabilizing that existential crisis that you had had great potential
1:03:44
right because you resolved it but that didn't mean it was without its pain sure right so if you imagine a hierarchy of
1:03:52
axioms right and so the lower the Axiom hierarchy you go the more chaos
1:03:59
is is released when that axium is challenged you get a negative emotional
1:04:05
response to that with there anxiety and threat because God only knows what happens when all hell breaks loose but
1:04:10
there's a positive aspect too that's why it's a dragon and a treasure always in the hero mythology it's because when all
1:04:17
hell breaks loose there's immense opportunity and so and that's part of the meaning now I think you capitalize
1:04:24
on that treasure let's say on the treasure portion of that chaos by assuming something like your own
1:04:30
Ignorance by allowing your initial preconceptions to die and by tracking
1:04:36
the trail of deep and insistent questioning so now you your questioning
1:04:42
took the place if I've got it right you basically took the scientific tack hey
1:04:48
is that right because you're yeah well I'm trying to understand a truth the truth of the
1:04:54
Universe um and um pH physics is essentially study of the truth of the
1:05:00
universe at least those things that um are predictable so see when I when I
1:05:05
resolved my existential crisis which happened about the same time yours did I
1:05:11
started I didn't study science precisely I wasn't as interested in the transformations of the material world so
1:05:19
I'm probably more people oriented than thing oriented temperamentally so I started to study evil
1:05:26
so that was my sure delving Into the Depths because I wanted to crack that I
1:05:31
wanted to understand if it more not so much even whether it existed because I became consist convinced of that very
1:05:38
quickly but what exactly that had to do with me cuz when I was reading history I
1:05:43
read it as a perpetrator and not as a victim or a hero I mean I try to read history to
1:05:49
discern the facts of of what humans did
1:05:55
you know so that also is shaped the way that you act
1:06:00
though um probably sure I I've read a lot of history
1:06:06
um and I try to understand the rise and po of civilizations and um what do you think
1:06:13
makes them fall well one of the things is um a decreasing birth rate um which
1:06:20
seems to be a natural consequence of prosperity um isn't that strange he cuz
1:06:26
You' you'd kind of predict the opposite wouldn't you as far as I know every civilization
1:06:32
that has experienced Prosperity has um had a decline in population there may be a few exceptions perhaps people can
1:06:39
enlighten me I I'll look at this the the comments on this interview to see
1:06:44
perhaps what I can learn um but it seems that um from what I've read
1:06:52
um every or almost every civilization when when when they become
1:06:58
prosperous um the their birth rate drops um you think that's a consequences of
1:07:04
the emergence of something like a a a nonp punished hedonistic
1:07:09
egocentrism like well as obviously you mean there there certainly many examples of of civilizations they become
1:07:15
prosperous there is generally a trend towards Hedonism yeah well you can get away with it if you're wealthy because
1:07:21
the consequences of your foolishness don't smack you on the head instantly uh precisely so you know if you're if
1:07:28
you're a civilization under threat like let's say you there's a um if you take say Rome when they were um trying to not
1:07:36
get annihilated by Carthage um and they had Hannibal running around Maring Italy
1:07:41
um they didn't have time for Hedonism right Hedonism is not an option uh we're
1:07:46
going to get destroyed by hanal chips are down yeah when the when when you're under when a civilization's under stress
1:07:53
um there's there's very little Hedonism that takes you know William James said that the modern world needed a moral
1:07:58
equivalent to war right he investigated the religious realm very very deeply and
1:08:04
this I think this was in the varieties of religious experience and that really had an effect on me because I think that
1:08:10
you need something akin to an existential threat in order to set you
1:08:16
straight I think there's some truth to that yeah you know it's sort of like if it's a let's say if if if it's a spoiled
1:08:22
child that where everything who gets that that kid gets everything he or she wants um and you have sort of a Baro
1:08:29
assault situation um and uh and then RIT Lodge that is a civilization that is pro
1:08:37
way people get everything they want I think it's the right way to think about it developmentally and neuropsychologically
1:08:44
because maturation itself consists of two processes let's say the more mature
1:08:51
I am the more I'm bringing other people into the purview of my vision
1:08:56
so I extend myself across other people be my family first but then brought more
1:09:02
the community more broadly the better you're you are at that the more people you can play a game with at the same
1:09:09
time but you also do the same thing with the future and that's actually as far as I can tell what the cortex is for it's
1:09:15
to move you away from primordial hedonistic motivation to this more inclusive sense of future and Community
1:09:23
right and that's a higher order s and so the default would be immaturity and
1:09:29
wealth can obviously facilitate that and maybe it's partly because okay so you're
1:09:34
a very wealthy man you could give your children anything they ever asked for okay so why not do it why not every time
1:09:40
they ask for something why just deliver it you know there's some wisdom that that comes comes through the ages that
1:09:45
that you don't want to have someone be a spoiled rat um that's uh and why do you think giving people everything they want
1:09:52
exactly when they want it necessarily produces that because it seems to it it
1:09:57
I think it it it almost always is okay you had a rough childhood yeah yeah like
1:10:02
rough and tumble rough childhood plenty of fights and a father who is a difficult creature to contend with okay
1:10:09
what did that do for you um and are you grateful for it or are you unhappy about
1:10:14
it well I guess you never know the things that really made you who you are today so at the end of the day am I on
1:10:22
net grateful for my life I am um and even for the the hard things um because
1:10:28
those hard things you know I learned from them what did you learn I mean I read your auto
1:10:34
your biography it's not an autobiography no it's not no no no no definitely not I would tell it in a different way than
1:10:40
Isaacson because Isaacson who I think is an excellent biographer is not nonetheless looking at things through
1:10:47
his lens um and uh wasn't there at the time right of course of course well what
1:10:52
one of the things that stood out for me too though from that and I would like your comments about this was the
1:11:00
rather the rough details of your childhood a lot of physical altercations
1:11:05
and a lot of I don't know exactly how altercations I mean I was almost beaten to death within an inch of my life at
1:11:12
one point right that counts that definitely counts as a physical a few
1:11:17
blows here and there yeah so what what did that okay why wer why aren't you
1:11:22
bitter about that because that's a pathway that people take I I think that there there are one
1:11:30
one can take and often people do take uh the
1:11:36
path of Vengeance yeah that's for sure yeah so or or that's natalism is yeah to
1:11:43
say to feel that the world has treated them unfairly and that they will visit upon the world that which the world has
1:11:49
visited upon them and so and justified by recourse to the reality of Their Own
1:11:55
suffering EXA which is often intense right yeah yeah so the story of Job one
1:12:01
of the things I concluded from the story of job because it's a precursor to the crucifixion story so job makes two
1:12:06
decisions the first decision is that no matter how Terrible Things become for him he will not lose faith in himself
1:12:13
and the second is no matter what Horrors are visited on him by Satan himself he will not lose faith in the what would
1:12:20
you say in the spirit that gave rise to the cosmic order right no matter what
1:12:25
well so you know while I'm not a particularly religious person I do believe that the the teaching the
1:12:32
teachings of Jesus are are good and and wise um and that there's there's
1:12:38
tremendous wisdom in turn the other cheek um and and for a while there when I was saying I thought well that's
1:12:44
really a weak thing to yeah it can be um if some someone and and and with respect
1:12:49
to bullies at school I think you shouldn't turn the other cheek you should punch them on the nose um and then ultim and then there after make
1:12:55
peace with them um but they need to stop stop buling you and and a punch on the nose will stop that um and then
1:13:01
thereafter you know make peace um so sometimes that punch on the nose is the
1:13:07
first step in making peace with bullies yes it may you know changed their career
1:13:13
from being a bully to PA station should be doing such things um but um yeah I
1:13:19
think this anyway so this notion this notion of of forgiveness
1:13:25
is important um it's I think it's essential uh because if if you don't
1:13:31
forgive then you know as the I forget who said it but an eye for an eye makes everyone blind if you're going to uh
1:13:38
seek Vengeance and and you have this NeverEnding cycle of Vengeance MH um
1:13:43
there are anthropological speculations that we were caught in a 350,000 year cycle of not getting anywhere after
1:13:50
modern human beings emerged precisely because of that because we couldn't get out of
1:13:56
accelerating tit fortat Revenge Cycles right yeah so so I'm I'm actually a big
1:14:01
believer in in in the principles of Christianity um I think they're very good so in what sense then are you not
1:14:11
religious well so Dawkins just came out three weeks ago or thereabouts and
1:14:17
announced that he was a cultural Christian right and so the question right I I would say I'm I'm I'm probably a cultural Christian I was I was brought
1:14:23
up as a and I was baptized um and although oddly enough my parents also
1:14:29
simultaneously sent me to a a Jewish Nursery School Preschool um so it was
1:14:35
Jesus our lord Jews have a reputation for being religious too you know yeah yeah no I I might have been the only
1:14:41
non-jewish kid at the school I didn't even realize that was the thing um so um but I was just singing hav ailla one day
1:14:47
and Jesus Is Our Lord the next you know um so that that is my upbringing um so
1:14:53
so when when when Dawkins announced he was a cultural Christian the question that came to my mind right away was okay
1:15:00
there's a bunch of things going on there the first is Dawkins Proclamation or
1:15:05
admission that if you compare different societies and their axiomatic
1:15:11
suppositions he would prefer the ones predicated on Christian axiomatic
1:15:17
assumptions I I do think those are good ones okay so okay so so so that that's
1:15:23
why I asked you the question about why you would consider yourself not a religious person because it seems to me
1:15:30
that the essence of it isn't it isn't the statement that you abide by a
1:15:35
particular Protestant Creed let's say it seems to be much more akin to the notion that you believe that this set of aaic
1:15:44
presuppositions is like the pronatalist presumption it's it's correct like it's not correct to
1:15:51
lead to a better Society a society I think that we would prefer to be like I mean if you say like what what what will
1:15:59
result in the greatest happiness for Humanity considering not just the present but all future humans happiness
1:16:05
or meaning well which would you pick
1:16:11
personally I'd pick meaning because for me meaning leads to happiness but I think that's right but the reverse isn't
1:16:17
necessarily the case yeah let's let's just say the if
1:16:22
you I could say contentment or something um but I think if if a set of principles
1:16:29
is likely to lead to um a a society thinking them of themselves as
1:16:36
happy or content or um well okay then you you want you want to then principles
1:16:42
that lead uh to the the most amount of Happiness over time yeah not just the
1:16:48
present yeah yeah yeah yeah that iteration elements important yeah um
1:16:55
because you have to consider the happiness of future humans as well I think that's where the ethos actually develops is that it's a consequence of
1:17:01
iterated games right now but the contentment issue I have a harder time with so you know reward divides into two
1:17:08
categories there's satiation reward and there's dopamine incentive reward and they're not the same and it looks to me
1:17:16
given what you've already told me about the way that you resolved your existential crisis is that you consistently pick that that's Adventure
1:17:23
reward fundamentally over contentment now you like your kids and you're content with them I presume what you're
1:17:29
playing but the way that you found meaning in your life is not through contentment it's through Adventure that
1:17:36
seems to me the case to be the case well it's not adventure for the sake purely
1:17:41
of Adventure I do like Adventure um but for example a lot of people find
1:17:47
happiness and contentment with Adventure like climbing toll mountains um or or uh hiking long Trails doing doing um going
1:17:55
going you know exploring the Wilderness and that kind of thing um and uh I I
1:18:01
I've never really found personally I found it uh compelling to say climb
1:18:06
Mount Everest um the you're doing it conceptu conceptually and from a
1:18:12
knowledge standpoint yeah knowledge Mount Everest um right so it's adventure it's it's adventure with a destination
1:18:19
in mind right and you already described the destination it's deep understanding yes to to our understanding of the the
1:18:26
nature of the universe um I think this is I mean one I guess could call it a religion I I
1:18:33
wouldn't be upset about that but that's that that is my religion for you know La
1:18:39
lack of a better way to describe it is is really it's the religion of curiosity the religion of Greater Enlightenment
1:18:46
and and then and and then if you follow that so like that's the goal then what what falls out of that goal what falls
1:18:53
out of that goal is is to um have uh Consciousness expand in scale and and
1:19:01
scope so you have so I use scale and scope to say that you want we want more
1:19:06
Consciousness and I think it's also good to have varied Consciousness uh you know so everyone's not thinking exactly the
1:19:12
same that's those multiple eyes say yeah so I think it's probably good to
1:19:18
have multiple multiple religions and have different different different perspectives on things um
1:19:25
and uh and so so what falls out of that is is we need to take the set of actions that increase the probability that the
1:19:31
future will be good for um for Humanity and that uh and and we want to
1:19:37
expand Consciousness we want to um I think we should increase the population of of Earth not decrease it um and I
1:19:45
think that will that will not result in the hungarians have been successful in that regard by the way they've they've
1:19:51
made Family policy planning their fundamental concern that was D that was driven in part by a
1:19:57
woman named kathyn Novak who used to be president of Hungary she's a very very smart person and they've they've knocked
1:20:04
the abortion rate in in in Hungary down by 38% with no compulsion right they
1:20:10
have a 12we limit in Hungary yeah they've increased the proportion of women in the labor force by about 15%
1:20:16
they've knocked the divorce rate down substantially and at minimum they've decreased the decline in the birth rate
1:20:23
I don't know if they've actually managed to built it back up in Hungary yet but they spend about 7% of their GDP on
1:20:29
family policy right and this Ark Enterprise we've been building in London made Family policy a center point we're
1:20:35
trying to bring classic conservatives and liberals together all around the world and you know your thinking on the
1:20:41
natalist front has actually been what would you say has been an input into that okay because I started to notice
1:20:48
well I don't know I don't think it was 20 years ago that I'd caught on to that it was it was it was not that long ago
1:20:54
go but I knew that there was something terribly wrong with the fact that the birth rates have plummeted so terribly
1:21:00
in South Korea and Japan I think in South Korea now it's something like 40%
1:21:05
of men in their 30s are virginal it's some cataclysmic the Virgin not virgin thing is you know neither here or there
1:21:12
but the uh the fact that uh I believe the birth rate in uh South Korea is
1:21:21
um9 I think right which which I think it even went maybe gone down to 08 last
1:21:26
year or something um but that that essentially means that um if you fast
1:21:32
forward um that the population of career would decline by 60% right necessarily if if you have a
1:21:40
steady and that assumes over what span time in fact if if that oh uh it's it's
1:21:47
well Koreans are long lived so it the you won't see the the numbers it won't
1:21:52
be as obvious at first you'll just see that there's a very disproportionate number of of old people right um because
1:21:58
they live a long time um but but for for predicting the future population of any
1:22:04
country the simple way to do it is say how many babies were born last year and what is the average lifespan in that
1:22:10
country and that that and and then if if that birth rate if that number of babies
1:22:15
stays constant then eventually the old people will die and that will be the population of the country it's very very straightforward right right right um so
1:22:23
if you look to say Japan um which I think had on the order of 800,000 births last year um and then you
1:22:29
multiply that by the uh LIF span which is around 84 85 years um you you get to
1:22:37
a population of that's in the sort of 60 60 to 70 million range which is um
1:22:43
massive decrease from where it is today um over 100 million well it seems to me
1:22:49
the combination of that lack of